Unleash your outrageous potential with Leslie Peters

237: Leslie Peters: Unleash your outrageous potential

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast where we uncover the leadership life hacks that help you to experience breakout performance faster and rocket to success. And now here’s your host customer and employee engagement expert & certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach. 

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Okay, Fast Leader legion, today I’m excited because we’re going to get into some extremely important realities and conversation with Leslie Peters who was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico when her dad was in the Air Force there. She spent most of her childhood in Nebraska, first in Omaha and then in a small town outside of Omaha which is now part of Omaha. She describes Nebraska as a good place to be from. People are hardworking, thoughtful, and as her mom describes it foursquare with the world. Which means that they have strong opinions about right and wrong and they act from those values. 

Leslie is the oldest child and the only girl in her family. Her dad traveled about 50 weeks a year so she was the other grown-up in her house for most of her life. Her two younger brothers would probably describe her as bossy. He would say that being bossy was what she needed to be able to help her mom. Being the oldest the only girl and the other grown up in her house taught Leslie to be responsible for everyone and everything. Sometimes it serves her well and sometimes it doesn’t. Having been responsible from an early age also gave Leslie the confidence to share her ideas and ways that helped people feel safe in times of uncertainty and transition. Growing up in a small town taught her to take her big, sometimes weird ideas, and translate them for people who don’t necessarily think in the same way. That helps give people access to her new effectives that can support them in new situations.

Leslie began her career in fundraising and administration for nonprofit organizations mostly focused in education. Through jobs ranging from development director to executive director to consult, Leslie has been inside of organizations of all shapes and sizes from startups to legacy situations trying to reinvent themselves. For decades there have been a movement for nonprofits to become more like businesses and Leslie has seen that happen. She believes however that for nonprofit organizations also have much to learn from nonprofit organizations about organizational purpose and connection. She now finds herself speaking, training and facilitating for organizations in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors and coaching individuals and teens as they seek to align their personal values with their behaviors and their team and organizational aspirations with their day-to-day actions. She’s also the author of Finding Time to Lead. 

Leslie lives in St. Louis Missouri with her second husband Dan and his son Aidan and her daughter Grace. Together they call themselves the GLAD Team because their initials spell GLAD—Grace, Leslie, Aidan, and Dan. Dan is a jazz, guitarist and composer. Leslie and Dan lead workshops using music as a metaphor for leadership. She also has a grown-up stepson and daughter-in-law from her first marriage who lives in San Francisco. Leslie Peters, are you ready to help us get over the hump?

Leslie Peters:   I’m ready, let’s do it. 

Jim Rembach:    Now I’ve given my Legion a little bit about you but can we hear what your current passion is so that we get to know you even better?

Leslie Peters:   Sure. My current passion is really about that alignment piece and working with leaders and teams as they face situations and changes since the world gets more and more complex and fast-paced and all of the things that happen when we move into edges and spaces where we don’t necessarily know what’s happening or what’s coming. And so that’s really the work I’m doing now and it’s been really exciting.

Jim Rembach:    Well, it’s kind of make that a little bit more attainable and understandable. And look, Finding Time to Lead  you talk about three shifts and then seven principles in order to be able to unleash outrageous potential. For me it’s important that we talk about these three shifts that have to occur. You and I also had some really good discussions, and hopefully we’ll be able to weave that in, to what you’re going to be able to share as well.

Leslie Peters:   Hmm-hmm great. So three shifts that I talk about in the book that are really important sort of are based in the idea that being a leader is not something you do it’s someone you are. The book talks a lot to CEOs but it’s really for anyone at any level of leadership because we’re all leading all the time, as you know from your work too. The three shifts are: first, is from doing to being. So we have to really shift from the constant busyness of being in the work and doing the work to being a person that helps others do the work and that’s a big shift. The second one is the shift from knowing to understanding. As things get more complex as you become sort of a hierarchical leader your scope of influence gets much broader. You can’t actually know everything that everyone’s doing in every minute you have to understand the big picture and get to how it all fits together that’s a different level of way of thinking. And then the last one is from reacting to responding. So reacting is really those sort of quick reactions that come from our, sometimes it’s influenced by our fight-or-flight response, and responding is a much more thoughtful way of sort of taking in what’s happening and choosing to respond in a way that supports everyone. So those are the three shifts.

Jim Rembach:    With those three shifts, you and I had the opportunity to talk about some of the responsibilities that we have at leading. Like what you said a moment ago, if anything we’re the CEO of self. 

Leslie Peters:   Exactly, yes. 

Jim Rembach:    And when we take on the roles and responsibilities of leading others in the development and the performance of others there are certain things that we must commit to and oftentimes we talk about working in the business having that shift and then we talk on the business not the transition of not being as much of the doer. There’s a critical component in all of this and it happens even at the frontline level. In reality as I see that people above the frontline level are absolutely influencing the behavior of those people on the frontline. And you must be able to essentially fill your own well you must develop yourself in order for you to appropriately, properly and responsibly help to develop the skills and the performance of others.

Leslie Peters:   Absolutely. My mom used to have DLD, do what I say not what I do, which is never effective you need to see people doing what they’re asking you to do. And as you become responsible for more people you have to change who you are and how you operate in order to be able to do those things. The first practice in the book is actually called embark, which is really exactly what you’re saying it’s recognizing that obligation and making that choice to develop myself as a leader so that I can fulfill this obligation and responsibility I now have to other people. Again whether I have direct reports or not I’m always leading and influencing the people around me.

Jim Rembach:    To me that’s also an opportunity for somebody to say, this is not for me, because the reality the fact is that not everybody has the desire. I’m not going to say skills because a lot of times that could be developed I think the journey and the path is just longer for some versus others, I mean you have to be able to say, I’m in it. 

Leslie Peters:   Exactly. You really have to choose it and you have to want to do that personal development that’s required. You have to want to grow and take that on. You can grow in other ways that aren’t about leading people or being responsible for people. We should always, as you said, be developing ourselves and looking to the next piece of what we need to get better at what we do or get better at being who we are for others. But that idea of being responsible for people takes it to a whole different level.

Jim Rembach:    It absolutely does. Okay, when we start talking about the seven principles you hit embark, kind of share with us some of these other principles.

Leslie Peters:   Sure. So the first one is embark which is just making the choice. The next one is expand which is really kind of expanding your way of thinking and sort of making it broader so you can take in the complexity and be okay with it. The next one is—before that is explore, exploring who you are and what you care about so that you can be clear about how you’re showing up. Then expand your thinking. Engage it’s a little bit about we were talking about in terms of how we interact with others and how we bring them into things as opposed to sort of being the leader who says this is how it is. Because particularly in these complex environments people need to have some stake they need to have some skin in the game we need to engage them. The next one is encouraged which is being in it not just for me but being in it for the people around me and the people who work for me. Which is a big shift we’re used to sort of this is my career this is how I’m going to get ahead this is a huge shift to really think about encouraging others instead of being focused on ourselves. The next one is evolve which is another piece. Once you’ve chosen to really embark on this journey you have to recognize that it’s a constant evolution it doesn’t stop it keeps going. And then the final was extent which is based on a definition of love actually from a Scott Peck book from the 70s which is my paraphrase is the will to extend yourself on behalf of others. So it really is that sense that I am not in this for me I am willing to extend myself to do what I need to do for the people around me and particularly the people to report to me.

Jim Rembach:    And that last particular attribute is probably one of the most important of all the multitude of different attributes that somebody needs to actually have in order to success—

Leslie Peters:   And to really choose, sort of the will to do that. The story I tell in the book is actually a personal story about my husband Dan. When I was traveling a lot when we first started living together—he was traveling a lot and I would come home and there would be dishes all over the kitchen it just make me crazy because I was gone and now I come home and there are dishes everywhere. It never really occurred to him he doesn’t really care about dishes and so finally I said, this really bothers me I don’t want to come home to all of the dishes that you made in the last week. And so now he’s really careful about making sure the dishes are cleaned up and that is him being willing to extend himself to do something that isn’t really that important to him it doesn’t really matter to him but he’s willing to do it because he knows it’s important to me. And I think particularly as leaders that’s our obligation, we can’t always be waiting for people to come to us and do what we think they should do we need to extend ourselves to them.

Jim Rembach:    Even when I start thinking about the whole extension piece, I start thinking about how that extends to outside of the organization and in the world that we live today being so focused in on an experience, a customer experience a relationship with customers and it doesn’t matter if it’s business to business or business to consumer or even government entities you talk about nonprofits they have to do a good job. For me when you start talking about the amount of competition in the nonprofit world that has just exploded in the past ten years.

Leslie Peters:   Yes, it really has. And the threshold for people’s experiences with things has shifted. It’s a much more immediate thing it’s sort of to come above the noise it needs to be a meaningful interaction meaningful relationship. And the way to do that is to extend yourself and to really meet that person where they are and encourage them and extend yourself to bring them into an engagement with you. 

Jim Rembach:    If I start thinking about the works that you’ve been doing over the past several years or has two things happened first of all the understanding and the need that we have significant opportunity in regards to developing people to be leaders because everybody talks about the leadership crisis. When you look at global CEOs it’s a huge, huge area of worry for them and so that particular piece. How much more are organization is actually talking about that customer experience versus what it was in the past?

Leslie Peters:   Hmm-mm, couple of things. I do a lot of work with organizations that are in high times of growth or change particularly if you’re in a high time of growth. If I worked with a company that doubled in size over two years from 90 to 180 people and then two years later they doubled again and we looked around and sort of everybody in the management sort of leadership group below the senior leadership team was about 26 and they’d been there for three months or a year and they had now three people reporting to them and they had no idea what it was to be a leader to be a manager to have responsibility for people. And so again that big shift from, I’m responsible for myself and doing the work to I’m responsible for other people and all of our work, is a huge shift. I think that happens and it’s amplified during times of growth when people are moving up quickly. So I see it a lot in that particular arena. I also think that it’s easier and easier to change jobs. If I’m mad today I can go online and I can apply for seven jobs. We used to have to wait for the Sunday, and by Sunday maybe I’ve sort of cool off and calm down. I don’t really need any job but now I’m like I’m going to go apply for seven jobs because my manager just did something that made me really mad. 

The stakes are higher it’s expensive to replace people more expensive than it’s ever been because we need this deep knowledge of what’s happening in our industries and in our organizations. And so I think all of that—and there’s a lot of research too that the single most important factor in a person’s level of satisfaction with their job is their direct manager. And so I think that is also amplifying the need to make those people really good because they’re the linchpin for our retention efforts and then the same is true for customers in the same way like we’re all competing. To raise above the noise we need to have the meaningful interactions and that requires different things of people than just solving your problem.  

Jim Rembach:    Oh, man, were so connected in a lot of different ways. I actually talked about that frontline leader being the linchpin between contributor and the rest of the organization’s hierarchy above that. When you start looking at this whole issue I think we’re seeing it more and more of deep knowledge needed. The complexities of the work is not getting easier. One of the things I think I find very interesting as I was having this conversation with somebody the other day talking about a young person and their personality and the way that they’d go about doing things. And I said, they should never work for a very, very large organization because they’re only going to be able to do one thing a very big barriers and they won’t be able to live in that environment. So when you start talking about the shift in the work, and when you start talking about how that is affecting the whole leadership thing—you talk about—you use two words, you use manage and too many times people put those two together. How much more is that separation and understanding happening at a rate that it’s actually going to be able to do some good so that we can do the shifts and we can actually apply the seven principles?

Leslie Peters:   Hmmm, great question. I do think that people complete those words and that that’s not a good way to think about it. There are management skills there are things we need to know to sort of get the work done and then there are the leadership skills which are how we engage people. I think that the space between, sort of our management and our leadership, is that potential. We’ve sort of technically we’ve done technology and we’ve built new processes and we’ve done all of these things to make people more efficient but we haven’t actually—the leadership piece is the part that gets people to bring their creativity. It gets them to bring their innovation it gets them to problem-solve at a different level and that’s what happens in that space between management and leadership. I do things because we’ve sort of squeezed everything we can out of the processes in the reorganization and the systems and the ways we draw our organization charts that people are recognizing that that’s the latent potential that exists and really thinking about how we tap into that is I think a big part of this shift between management and leadership.

Jim Rembach:    Also too you started talking about the impact of that immediate supervisor. I’ve just had Jim Parker who’s chief scientist with Gallo show and he talks about the their 80 plus years of studying in the workplace and how that immediate supervisor owns 70% variance in the engagement of the employee it’s massive. So culture lives at local levels. 

Leslie Peters:   Exactly, exactly. Yeah, to paraphrase all culture is local. John Maxwell talks about it as the lid. That level of management is your lid and people will grow up to the level of that manager and the impact that that person has is outsized. That’s why I think a lot of companies are beginning to recognize that. And also recognize that these are skills and ways of being and  ways of showing up that we don’t learn and we’re not taught these things we’re not even in many ways encouraged to pursue self-development we’re encouraged to like take the test and get the right answer. I like to talk about sort of thinking of life as a quest and not a test. This one is a test it’s all about, let’s get the right answer what do I have to do to get an A and when it’s a quest you add that level of creativity of personal agency of capacity to see things in a bigger way and that’s how particularly organizations that are focused on the future are going to capitalize on these next possibilities that we can’t even really see right now.

Jim Rembach:    So that leads me to believe or leads me to want to know a situation where you’ve had work with a particular organization where they don’t necessarily had that mindset had that viewpoint and it wasn’t a realization at that senior level leader. If they’re not investing in themselves and they’re not making it an intentional commitment or that it’s being conveyed and then therefore is being set as an expectation by the time it gets filtered down in the frontline all they’re saying is, hey I just got to do my work. Have you seen as an impact the organization when that has shifted? 

Leslie Peters:   A useful framework for this as we do a lot of work with Carol Dweck’s, growth and fixed mindset. So that’s a useful frame in a lot of ways. One of the key ways that I talk about it is in a fixed mindset, which is where you think that your talents and abilities and skills are fixed, so what I know is what I know I’m smart I’m going to do everything I can to prove all the time that I’m smart. As opposed to a growth mindset which is everything can grow and evolve and I can get better at anything that I try. In a fixed mindset other people are judges and in a growth mindset other people are allies. When you start making those culture shift and you start giving people back to the personal development the capacity to see others as allies the capacity to see situations as a learning opportunity and not as a pass/fail moment then they begin to build these connections between each other. They begin to sort of say, I don’t get how this works, can you help me? And that is maybe the single biggest thing that moves people forward is that idea of connecting. Managers don’t have to always know the answer it’s the shift from knowing to understanding being able to say, I don’t know we’re going to have to figure it out. It’s a huge step but it’s not something that comes naturally particularly in our high-achieving cultures.

Jim Rembach:    That’s a very good point. When I start talking about all of this and what we’ve been chatting about there’s a whole lot of emotion that it’s sometimes pent-up sometimes gets realized. One of the things that we look at on the show are quotes to help us get focused to move in the right direction. Is there a quote or two that you like that you can share?

Leslie Peters:   Sure. Well, one of them I’m going to say is mine, I really like progress happens at the edges between where we are and where we want to go. So the idea that—that’s what happened we’re here and progress is going to happen and edges are scary we have to really step into that space if we want to get someplace else. So I like that one. And the other one that I think of a lot is a guy named Peter Block who writes in the community development space, if you never say no your yes means nothing.

Jim Rembach:    That’s a very great one.

Leslie Peters:   Isn’t that great? I really like that too. It’s a good one for me to remember when I’m just saying yes to lots of things that I don’t really want to do or that don’t feel aligned and then I have to remember that if I never say no my yes means nothing. It’s good too organizationally we tend to sort of say a lot of yeses but they’re only halfway we don’t really mean them and so being clear about yes and no is an important thing.

Jim Rembach:    Also for me when I start thinking about that that comes with a whole lot of realizations along the way there are typically humps that we’ve had to get over to kind of get us to the point to know the importance of really both of those. Is there a time where you’ve got another hump that you can share? 

Leslie Peters:   Yeah, lots of them. I would say that—let’s think—what’s a really good one that I’ve gotten over the hump…? Well, writing the book was getting over a hump. I think that a lot of people have that hump. I have so many things I’m going to say there’s so much writing I want to do and things I want to do and I would say that the thing that sort of got me over that hump was just letting go. It’s a little bit like the quest versus test idea. Letting go of the idea that this has to be the perfect book and like it has to be the be-all end-all book and then has to do all of these things and just sort of being in my own quest about I have things to say and things that I think are and things I’ve learned that I want to share and I’m going to do that with this book. I think that again that sort of sense of what expectations we set for ourselves that keep us from doing things versus having that sense of possibility and mission that causes us to do things and be at those edges.

Jim Rembach:    Okay, so then I started thinking about how you actually went through the point of being reserved and holding back and not finding momentum and getting things done on the timeline that a publisher wants you to get them done, what caused you or how did you actually have that final release to where it’s like, I need to just let go and I need to be on a quest?

Leslie Peters:   Part of it was with the book specifically, and I find this in other things too, part of it is just like getting it all out. Instead of starting out with like this is the perfect thing really just sort of letting it all out there. I probably wrote two maybe three books, in writing this book and then I went back and really edited it. And so I think that’s true. I’ll often do that with clients we’ll sort of talk about everything and then we sort of scale back to the really meaningful things so that’s a process that works for me. I always have lots of ideas and lots of things and then it sort of there’s a process of pulling it in. And so that would be letting myself just write as opposed to having to write the perfect things which I think translates into lots of things rather than waiting until we have the perfect thing to do it just doing some stuff and watching how it works.

Jim Rembach:    That’s really interesting point. Like you’ve mentioned a moment ago is we’re not conditioned and trained to do that and just refer to is actually an activity and divergent and convergent thinking. I was essentially wild urge it urgent my thinking I threw it all out there but then I took it and I actually honed it in to where it’s something like you actually said that you’d have some skills in is making things seem a little bit more tangible and digestible and easier for people but all of us could actually learn a lot by going through that as an exercise and a practice.

Leslie Peters:   Yes, absolutely. And I do think that the idea of sort of divergent thinking which is big and broad really supports a lot of the places we are now in terms of complexity trying to pin down the smallest thing is too hard there’s too much. So if we start with sort of this broad view then we start bringing it down and I think it’s a little like that shift the difference between knowing and understanding. So the knowing is like I’m going to get exactly the right little bit of information and the understanding is, wow! This is a big thing I’m working in here it has a context that’s different than the specific little thing. 

Jim Rembach:    I think that’s a great point. When we start talking about where you are now where you things see things going, what are some of the changes that you know are going to be advantageous for the organization of tomorrow in order to be able to unleash that outrageous potential? We hit on several things, but one thing that we haven’t? 

Leslie Peters:   One thing that we haven’t, a couple things, one of them is I think this idea of people being really connected to each other is really important. And that goes back to your point sort of like the manager and building real teams that having a lot of talk about psychological safety but really connecting people at a level that allows them to move into the unknown with some sense of courage and personal agency. The idea that I’m not just waiting for the answer or I’m not just waiting for someone to tell me what to do but the people around me are my allies and we’re doing this together so we can move into this kind of scary space with some confidence and some sense that we will figure it out as opposed to sitting and waiting for the answer. I think the ways that people are connected and feel like they can fail like they can try things that don’t work like it’s okay that there isn’t an answer right now I think that’s going to be a distinguishing feature of successful organizations of the future. And the other one is, this idea that as things get more complex there’s a choice to make. So right in that moment where suddenly everything that we’ve been doing before isn’t working that customer or a client wants something that isn’t what we’ve ever done so we freak out. We can choose, and this is where the leader comes in but also everyone this is a place where everyone can make the idea that we’re just going to create a new process we’re going to find the right answer we’re going to talk to the experts we’re going to go just kind of close in on that convergent thinking. Or wow, what an interesting opportunity let’s all sort of take a different path and really think about how we can learn about this and how we can try something new and how we can move into this unknown space with some sense of courage. And that moment where we decide that we’ll set the trajectory for that particular project or organization or thing that we’re working on.

Jim Rembach:    Okay everybody we’ve been talking with Leslie Peters, the author of Finding Time to Lead and we’re going to be back in one moment with the Hump Day Hoedown. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor:

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Alright, here we go Fast Leader legion it’s time for the Hump Day Hoedown. Okay, Leslie, the Hump Day Hoedown is the part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Leslie Peters, are you ready to hoedown? 

Leslie Peters:   I’m ready. 

Jim Rembach:    Alright. So what is holding you back from being an even better leader today? 

Leslie Peters:   Fear. Fear is always the thing that holds me back. Fear of the unknown, fear of making a mistake fear of disappointing people and acknowledging it helps me move past it.

Jim Rembach:    What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?

Leslie Peters:   Be yourself. Everyone else has taken.

Jim Rembach:    What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

Leslie Peters:   Introspection, noticing what’s going on in my head and also really, really good listening. 

Jim Rembach:    What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

Leslie Peters:   Hmmm, again the listening. For me personally, it’s also just connecting with people and caring and being genuinely curious about other people’s stories.

Jim Rembach:    What would be one book that you’d recommend to our legion, it could be from any genre, of course, we’re going to put a link to Finding Time to Lead on your show notes page as well great.

Leslie Peters:   Great. The Answer to How is Yes by Peter Block.

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Fast Leader legion you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/Lesliepeters. Okay, Leslie, this is my last Hump Day Hoedown question: Imagine you’ve been given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25 and you can take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you but you cannot take it all you can only take one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

Leslie Peters:    I would tell my 25 year old self to relax and to take this wider longer view instead of sort of just thinking about what’s next. Having this wider view and this longer-term view and that everything would work itself out.

Jim Rembach:    Leslie, it was an honor to spend time with you today. Can you please share with the Fast Leader Legion how they can connect with you?

Leslie Peters:   Sure.  leslie@elementspartnership.com and also on my website which is elementspartnership.com and happy to have conversations about all of these exciting things.

Jim Rembach:    Leslie Peters, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom and the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links, from every show special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster.

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