Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to the fast leader podcast where we uncover the leadership life hacks that help you to experience breakout performance faster and rocket to success. And now here’s your host customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligent practitioner Jim Rebmach.

Speaker 2 (00:17):

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies. That is the blueprint that develops high performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen, so go to call center coach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the supervisor success path ebook now.

Jim Rembach (00:38):

Okay, fast leader Legion. Today. I’m excited because I have somebody on the show who’s going to help you be significantly better at looking in the mirror.

Jim Rembach (00:48):

Pam McLean was raised in the Northeastern corner of North Dakota, Minnesota and Manitoba, a part of the country where the temperatures dip a very low. The growing season is short and the wide open spaces of bound. She was one of three siblings and growing up includes everything you might imagine on a cattle ranch in the 1950s and sixties diverse tons of work and in retrospect an ideal way to grow up that doesn’t exist today. She learned how to do all of the usual farm chores. Herded cattle showed livestock at annual fairs and at an early age learned what a work ethic means. Pam completed an undergraduate and graduate degree at the university of North Dakota before moving to California in her later twenties Santa Barbara has been her home now for 40 years and in the setting she practiced for many years as a clinical psychologist, raised three sons and with her late husband over 20 years ago.

Jim Rembach (01:47):

Launched a leadership coaching services organization, the Hudson Institute of coaching, a company that continues to grow and flourish today. Pam has written several books life forward the completely revised handbook of coaching and her most recent Self as Coach Self as Leader, as a leader in the field of leadership coaching, she has a passion for continuing to aid in the development of a body of literature that allows the field of leadership coaching to thrive in the decades ahead. When Pam is not coaching, writing and running her organization, she has several interests and passions about cooking, testing new recipes, traveling to eat, and she has a cooking blog which she has fun with. She has three grown sons, Christopher, Michael and Charles and is an amateur Potter and an avid birdwatcher. Santa Barbara is home to one of the largest species counts in the United States. Pam McLean, are you ready to help us get over the hump?

Pam McLean (02:43):

I am ready. Happy to be with you, Jim.

Jim Rembach (02:46):

I’m glad you’re here. Now I’ve given my Legion a little bit about you, but can you tell us what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better?

Pam McLean (02:54):

Well, thank you for asking. I do have a continual passion for helping people be at their best. The tagline for my book self as coach self as leader is uh, really about that. How, how do we, uh, work our own internal territory, our internal landscape so that we can be at our best. And so I’m constantly reading about this, writing about this and end and teaching this. And that’s definitely one that is very current for me.

Jim Rembach (03:24):

Well, I mean you talk about current, this is getting even more important as well because in our world today we talk about it being in a relationship economy and experience economy. We talk about the degradation of our, our emotional intelligence because we’re now so consumed in our own personal devices and you know, we are rapidly losing our ability to really connect with ourselves so that we can connect with others. So you talk in this book is all inclusive of self awareness, self regard, self-actualization, new Y, Y those components for you. Why are they so important?

Pam McLean (04:03):

Well, much of it is just what you said. We live in a relationship economy and in a world where whether we are a leader or a leadership coach, the work we do happens through relationships. So a colleague of mine who lives in the UK and the Murdoch has this great phrase, she says, who you are is how you coach. I think we could say that about leading who you are is how you lead who you are is how you manage. And, and to know who we are takes time and, and intention. And it often gets overlooked for us.

Jim Rembach (04:40):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean I jokingly saying, we kind of talked about this off mic, but the good Lord made our eyes point out, we’re just terrible at looking inward.

Jim Rembach (04:48):

But when, when we start looking at, you know, these components in these elements, I start seeing where we are in today’s world. And so we talk about management, we talk about leadership and then we talk about coaching. I don’t know about you, but for me, I see all those now having to reside in one person.

Pam McLean (05:10):

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So a good leader doesn’t have to be a coach, but they have to have coach-like skills, uh, in order to succeed, an ability to have a growthful mindset, a commitment to knowing themselves so that they can show up in ways that are really important today. So if you think about what does it take to be a great leader today, and how has that changed over the years? So most of leadership is not a top down hierarchical situation anymore. And we lead, uh, we lead by example. We lead through relationship. We lead when we have the ability, the capacity to inspire others, uh, to, to form the kinds of relationships that are motivating to others. And so often in our world, we, we believe that what’s most important is what we know, that the tools we have. Uh, and, and Mo, most often when people move from becoming, from being an individual contributor where they may have been wildly successful to a manager, I think one of the toughest things is to come face to face with the reality that this is about relationships.

Pam McLean (06:29):

And so I have to get better at this. And, and I have to know myself, I, I have to, uh, have some sense of, I often say, you know what, what a stories guide me, what stories drive me. Uh, if I don’t know what those are then, then I’m not in charge of me, but my old stories might, might be in charge of me. Uh, so for an example, an example might be that, that, uh, I was just just on a call recently, very successful person who is, uh, working at the speed of light. People see that. They put a lot on his plate and he says yes to everything and, and he’s overwhelmed. And, and of course the more you say yes, the more people offer you things, put things on your plate and, and that is high. It’s highly likely that that is rooted in an old story. Is that, that to, uh, come to the age to say yes to be seen as helpful. Uh, it was how, uh, he flourished at one time in his life and now it’s just prison. But if we can’t see it, then it’s impossible for us to change.

Jim Rembach (07:46):

You know, you bring up a really good point talking about conversations. I had one yesterday with somebody where they had a piece of feedback, I provided it and they wanted to defend their position and get into that whole backward looking type of conversation and you know, having to be respectful of their time and my time. And I was like, okay, I don’t want to have that conversation. That conversation doesn’t help us where we need to go tomorrow. And so I mean defending a position is not going to help any of us. And so for me that could be perceived as wow, you know, that’s just shutting people off. That’s being, you know, I’m closed minded but for me I’m like at some point we need to start looking forward and stop looking back. Cause I, and I think this whole self thing oftentimes because we’re not so aware, we are uncomfortable with, you know, really saying, you know, Hey this, I need to look forward not back. This is where I am. And be okay with communicating that.

Pam McLean (08:47):

Yeah. Be willing to be vulnerable, uh, be willing not to know. I spent this past weekend, uh, in the presence of Mark nivo, wonderful writer you would like. And he starts his sessions and he says, it’s written many, many books, a lot of wisdom. I come with no answers and tastic right? I come with no answers. That means that I am open and interested in what you have to say. That I am curious that I’m not seeing my entire world, uh, all people around me that I may be leading, uh, and working with through my own experience. But rather I am interested in your experience so that, that requires all of those parts that I talk about in self as coach or leader. It requires me to be present to you in this moment. That means I can’t be multitasking. That means I have to take a deep breath and go, I have two minutes, or I have two minutes and, and, and it means I, I have to be, uh, interested in listening in, in, uh, considering the possibility that there might be another way to look at this than the way I looked at it.

Pam McLean (10:02):

So, yeah, all of those things.

Jim Rembach (10:04):

And so I think it’s also important for us to, before we go into some, some, you know, really specifics about how you are presenting all of this insight because there’s a wealth of it, um, is that we, we kind of, we kind of have to look at, you know, this whole element associated with forward looking and coaching. And a coach isn’t somebody who tells you what to do. Oftentimes, that’s what our perception is of a coach. Uh, what do you see a coach as

Pam McLean (10:35):

An enabler of a change is someone who is working with others. It could be an individual or a team, uh, uh, to facilitate a change that matters to them. And so that means that, that, uh, I’m not telling you I don’t have the answers. Uh, we have a contract, uh, you get to decide often with other stakeholders bringing input, uh, it, what it is that you want to shift or adjust that could make you even stronger in your work and your role in ways that matter to you.

Jim Rembach (11:15):

So for me, as you’re saying that, it’s like, okay, a coach, their responsibility is to bring out what is already inside of you that necessarily you cannot see.

Pam McLean (11:26):

It is, I think that’s a nice way of saying it because for most of us, if you think about this in your own life, what is one, one change? It might be small, it might be bigger that you want to make that would allow you to be at your best. We’ve all got answers to that. And, and what a coach does is helps you look at what, what, so what gets in the way, you know, what, what are the obstacles that we naturally, because we human beings are most at ease in habit, even when the habit is not a healthy one for us, right on. And then to build practices that that allows someone to start to test out a new way of being. Uh, so yeah, I think that that, while coaching does go back a bit in that we, the old stories that we have inform how I show up now a good deal of our work is in reflection and awareness building. If I have spent my entire adult life saying yes to everything, then then chances are that connects to an old story and it’s a habit. And, and so I have to first uncover unearth what is it that makes it hard for me to say no. And, and I might worry that, you know, if I say no, people won’t like me anymore. If I say no, people will never come back and ask. Right. But, but when we unearthed that, we open up new possibility for ourselves.

Jim Rembach (12:58):

Most definitely. Okay. So from a reference perspective, I mean this is just a slew of, of re re research, uh, hall of fame people that you’ve actually are accessing insight from. I mean, you know, Arnold Bateson, you know, Bowen, I mean, it goes on and on. Hudson, Klein Lasky, I mean, it’s just goes on and on and on. But for you, and when I looked at this, I’m like, okay, this is how we make sense of all of this. And you created a, what you call the self as coach model. So if you could please explain that.

Pam McLean (13:33):

You know, so it is built on the shoulders of so much good thinking and, and I am a strong believer that, that that’s important for us. And I didn’t just dream this up. Uh, however I did, I did come to this place, having worked for so long with coaches and leaders and noticing how often our work is, is on the internal landscape for us to be at our best, that, that, that internal landscape has to be more visible to us. And so the model that I put together, it looks at six areas in our internal landscape that are interactive, overlapping. Uh, sometimes one is more important than the other, and the six of them are presence. How we show up for ourselves, uh, both, both. And knowing our own internal chatter and the way that we’re present in, in the world. Uh, I often say colleague of mine, Dorothy [inaudible] has this wonderful quote and and her work, our presence is an intervention.

Pam McLean (14:38):

Powerful, right? The way I show up in every conversation is in and of itself an intervention. And people notice that within five seconds. So our presence as leader, as coach, our empathy. So without empathy, it’s very hard for us to have a conversation that matters, that empathy or at my ability to walk in your shoes without wearing your shoes, to hear your experience. Even if I have, have never had this experience. And imagine what that might be like for you. It allows me to connect with you. And, and as you started by talking about how our world is highly relational, now we are, we need that empathy in order to have conversations that matter. I talk about a third, which is feelings are range of feelings. And, and this applies perhaps even more for a leadership coach than, than many other professions that that we have to have comfort and ease with all kinds of feelings.

Pam McLean (15:44):

Because if you, as someone who comes to me for coaching, I have a lot of anger and I am very uncomfortable with anger, there’s not going to be space for you to, to share that. Or if you come with a lot of tears, then that does not work for me. Your tears will. So all of you will not have a space to show up. Uh, I, the fourth area I talk about is boundaries. That’s some of that is our ability to say yes and no. Uh, it is, uh, we’ve all known people and, and, and certainly leaders who get themselves immersed in tangled in all sorts of things that are really outside of their orbit, outside of their lane. And it is a derailer for them and, and confusing for others. So boundaries are very helpful too for us. Uh, and then, uh, embodiment that, how we embody that which we are and, and, and how we show up and, and how we actually are able to use our body as a source of resilience for ourselves.

Pam McLean (16:49):

How we breathe, how we speak, how we, how we, uh, manage the tone of voice, the intensity of voice, the speed, all of these things. And then finally, courage. And then I think for a leader or for a coach, courage is, is one of those differentiators. The, the coach is able to be courageous is the coach who can really add value to their client. Uh, the, the leader who can provide feedback that takes some courage to provide is a leader who helps someone grow. So they’re all interconnected as well. If I have empathy or heart and I use that along with that courage, the chances are I’m going to open space for something to happen together that could not happen otherwise.

Jim Rembach (17:45):

So, you know, as you’re talking, I’m starting to see so many other connections as far as think it as an ecosystem, right? So if this work is happening at the micro level, meaning the individual, I start being able to leverage this from a perspective of, you know, working in teams and work groups, then I can actually do it across business units. I can do it as an organization. We’re now, we’re starting to talk about building a culture and I can use it as well to impact that customer and that customer experience. I mean, to me this is like foundational components that undermined so many different organizations.

Pam McLean (18:18):

Oh, absolutely. And I, I love your, your systemic thinking about it because I, we know articles have been written over and over about the toxic leader, right? That that leader who, uh, uh, may be able to, uh, meet, meet quotas, but leaves a lot of debris in the pathway. [inaudible]. And so today in this world where talent is, talent is a, um, uh, a precious thing for us today and in 10 years it’s going to be even an even bigger issue for us. We know that that kind of leadership is not going to, uh, work, uh, that our work has to be through relationship and, and so that means the thing that, the thing about this work that we’re talking about is that it’s continual work. We can’t ever take our foot off the pedal that, that, uh, we never arrive. It’s a, it’s a journey without a destination. It’s a commitment to being at our best.

Jim Rembach (19:25):

Yeah. I love that you say that to me. It’s so evolutionary. So even when you were talking about that top toxic leader, I’m like, yep, been there, done that. I mean, you know, in, in my youth, you know, I had certain role models, I, you know, came up, you know, in a certain neighborhood. I, you know, had certain, you know, family dynamics. I mean all of these, these factors, you know, actually, you know, made me the leader that I was at the time. And for me, I think that’s why I’ve had this, you know, since then and had some struggles and all that, you know, this journey of trying to learn more about the things that we’re talking about today. So I don’t continue to do that for the rest of my life.

Pam McLean (20:03):

That’s true for all of us. If we’re awake, then we make new choices and, and develop new ways of showing up. Yeah. You talk to, even before we started about athletics, uh, and, and about different sports and it’s very interesting to, to look at the coaches in the sport, sports arenas. On, I sometimes talk about this and when I’m, uh, talking with groups that we see those, those coaches that are out, I’m a little bit more on the basketball and, uh, front I get out and they’re screaming and yelling at their team and, and does it help? I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Right? And then we have those coaches, uh, who sit on the bench quietly and afterward they review what happened and they look together at, at how they showed up, the plays they made, where the ms. So they’re growing awareness is so that the next time that team goes out, they can consciously make some shifts.

Jim Rembach (21:05):

I think you bring up a good point, you know, and that’s part of this whole Selfoss coach thing, knowing that, Hey, you know, how do I deal, you know, with this arrange of feelings. And we all know that when we get to a point of anger, you’re not thinking anymore. It’s just a pure reaction. And from a coaching perspective, I mean, people will say talking about styles and successes and things like that. And you know, I think one of the prime examples that I’ll often fall back to is Bob Knight, who was a head coach at a university of Indiana. Um, and what happened to Bob Knight? Yeah. Hall of fame coach, all of fame coach, you know, throws the chair, does all that stuff, you know, gets in the news, moves on the Texas tech. And what happened to Bob? I mean he just fell off the cliff because unfortunately people like Bob are no longer wanted in the coaching and yet they still exist all over the place. They just don’t have the visibility

Pam McLean (21:55):

And we’re changing.

Jim Rembach (21:57):

We are. Um, and so, um, hopefully we’ll make them contribute, you know, contribution to that, uh, as much as I possibly can. So now when we start talking about this use of self as coach model and you start talking about heat, what do you mean by [inaudible]?

Pam McLean (22:13):

Most of us, when we think about something we want to change. Think about this in your own life. We got about, yeah, I’d like to change that, but ah, you know, I’m actually pretty comfortable the way I am. So there’s often this phrase in organizational development that the platform has to be burning in order for a team or a system to actually say, okay, uncle, we need, we need to make a change. That’s true for us as human beings is so, so when I come to you and say, look, my, I have had this feedback, I, whether it’s a three 60 or whatever, my boss thought I needed to get some coaching because many people find me to be arrogant and, and that’s what I want to shift. I want to shift that. And, and, and we identify ways that that arrogance might show up.

Pam McLean (23:04):

Uh, it may be that I don’t ask very much that I tell a lot that I always have the answer, that I’m always in a hurry, that I don’t leave my door open, that I, those sorts of things. And we identify those and, and, and I sort of start to kind of go to work at it. Then I go back to my old way of being because it’s so comfortable. And so in coaching we have to turn the heat up. And that means a coach has to be able to use their courage, uh, with heart. They have to be able to share observations that, that other people are not willing to share. So for me to be able to say to you, you, when you tell me that story, here’s, here’s, here’s a reaction I have or I notice in your tone of voice there is, so I’m, I’m, I’m talking about the ability to really in a coach like way offer important observations to another that is going to help them grow. I think the same is true in, in the work as a manager or leader when you think about all of the one on ones that happen week after week after week and, and the missed opportunities that so often occur and to, to give those that are, uh, our direct reports, feedback that will help them grow, that that is critical for great leadership.

Jim Rembach (24:33):

And it’s also potentially a dual edged sword. I find oftentimes that people will ask for the feedback, they’ll ask for that type of insight and information. But then when it’s received, like that conversation I was talking about, they want to defend this, that and the other. And it’s like, okay, a coach can only be as good as their coaching.

Pam McLean (24:53):

Well, I think that there’s one more part to it. They can only be as good as the relationship that they have developed with that coachee. So, so when they have done the work and they have the respect of that coachee, and that coachee knows I am here for you and when I provide you with an observation, that’s hard to hear. I’m not doing, I’m doing it for one reason and one reason only because this is the work we’re working and you want to make this change. So I do think the quality of the relationship allows one to go places that others can’t go.

Jim Rembach (25:30):

Okay, Pam, what you just said in today’s world, I ain’t got time for that. I’ve got time for that. So what do I do?

Pam McLean (25:36):

Yeah. So when you say you don’t have time for that, what does that mean?

Jim Rembach (25:41):

Well, I mean that’s what you’ll get back as pushback. It’s people, I don’t have time to build that I need to get stuff done.

Pam McLean (25:48):

Yup, yup. So, so this is the refrain, right? T I. M. E. uh, and, and, and yet the, the reality is without building relationships, they, uh, uh, your ability to deliver the results you need to deliver are not strong. You know, if we took a look at this more globally at, at Hudson, we, we have spent a lot of time providing a full suite of coaching services and, and in an organization that really gets this, this reality that we achieve results when the people that are working in our organization want to be here, are growing and developing and feel valued, that there is a, a, an important link there. And, and, and so that we don’t have time for this. I don’t have time. This, I hear it all of the time, all of the time. Uh, and, and I say to people often, I’ve got five minutes, or I’ve got five minutes. We can do a lot in five minutes. So let’s just slow down in the moment and put our phone down and, and uh, put the lid down on, on our laptop and, and be real.

Jim Rembach (27:08):

That’s an excellent point. Uh, it’s being, you know, mindful present and all of that and taking full advantage of the time you do have because multitasking is a myth, right? So if I’m doing all these other things, there’s no way I’m getting anything done. I would love the study that came out a few years back about multitasking and basically if you’re trying to, you know, juggle five different projects because of the switching costs and all these other things, you’re basically getting nothing done. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So when I look at this, Oh my gosh. Um, it’s, this is talking about, I think this is the hardest part of all of this work that I’ve come across when it comes talking about trying to improve the customer experience, talking about trying to engage employees, you know, talking about trying to build a work culture, talking about trying to do transformation, digital transformation, all of the, I think this piece right here is, is the weakest link in all of it.

Speaker 4 (28:04):

Yeah, I agree on, and it’s crazy to me that we often talk about this as soft skills, right? And, and we think of the soft skills, so that can come later. But actually the soft skills are the hardest ones for us as human beings to learn. And, and they, they’re, they’re typically the biggest derailers, at least in my coaching experience. Uh, so yeah, I think that that, um, the, uh, this arena today, uh, it has more attention than it’s ever had that, that we understand a little bit more about how we can’t forego this. We talk, uh, I think I write in a book about this, this notion that comes from CCL, just, just down the road from you. Wonderful guy. Uh, Nick Petrie wrote, writes about vertical development and horizontal development. This notion that as, as human beings and leaders, we do all, we do a ton of work on horizontal development tools, reading books, resources, videos, you name it, right? And that’s important for us, but we often omit the vertical development, which is how I make meaning of things. Uh, the patterns, the stories, uh, the, uh, the development of me as a human being, which I cannot do solely through, uh, uh, cognitive learning. It’s like we often say in coaching that you cannot, we human beings cannot think through change. We have to think and feel simultaneously to make a change that matters.

Jim Rembach (29:47):

That’s a great point. So when I think about all of this work, talking about all this frustration, talking about all of this, uh, work, I mean, there’s a whole lot of inspiration that we can find in it as well as frustration, but we’ve got to stay, you know, focused and going in the right direction. One of the things that we use on this show to help us do that. Our quotes, is there a quote or two that you liked that you can share?

Pam McLean (30:08):

The one that I, I started with I think really gets to the heart of it is who we are, is how, how we lead. Who is our, is how we show up in this world. I think that says we’re more than our degree. We’re more than any book we wrote wrote or any skills we have. Uh, it’s, it’s the essence of who we are, impacts everything we do in this world. And if we don’t know ourselves back to HQ, if we don’t know ourselves, if we have a whole lot of blind spots, if when someone gives me feedback, my first inclination is to defend myself as opposed to being interested, uh, then then chances are we diminish our possibilities.

Jim Rembach (30:51):

Most definitely. Okay. So when I think about that, coming to this life’s work, uh, and doing the work that you’ve been doing, working with all these different generations, I’d say as well, um, different organizations looking at, you know, being able to make impact. We started looking at goals that we have. So when you start looking at your works, what is one goal that you have that you can share?

Pam McLean (31:15):

Hmm. Well, my, uh, my grandest goal that I’ve had for a long time as I want to make a difference in the world that I, I want to make the world a better place. And, and that’s so big that my, my, uh, my best way of doing that is, uh, in, in teams, in, uh, individual coaching, uh, believing that, that if we can, uh, create the mill you for a leader or a team to be even stronger, that that impacts, uh, that impacts everyone on that team. And, you know, here, here’s an interesting thing is that the work that we do work that I write about, which is often leadership focused, uh, impacts the whole person. And so last year I was in a, in a session working in a setting, right where I’d worked a few times and, and I had been with this particular group of leaders, uh, on, on three occasions and at the final session, uh, we were doing a checkout.

Pam McLean (32:21):

And, and one fellow who had a very, very big role. While I’ve been in it for a long time, he said, you know what? This is changed how I lead. It’s changed how I lead my team. I actually thought before this that I knew what my team was thinking and, and I didn’t, but here’s the biggest change. And he got very tearful when he said this. I am a different person at home as well. It has changed the way that I, my, uh, I relate to my adult children and it has, it has deepened my relationship with my spouse. So that’s powerful that, that when we make these shifts, it impacts all of us in all of our relationships.

Jim Rembach (33:06):

And the fast leader. Legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on, let’s get a quick word from our sponsor.

Jim Rembach (33:14):

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Jim Rembach (33:43):

Alright, here we go Fast Leader Legion. It’s time for the home. Oh, bow. Okay. Pam, up, they hold on as a part of our show where you give us good insights back. So I’m gonna ask you several questions and your job is to give us a robust get rapid responses are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Hey, I’m McClain. Are you ready to hoedown.

Pam McLean (34:03):

I’m ready.

Jim Rembach (34:03):

Alright, so what is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

Pam McLean (34:10):

Are taking risks, allowing myself to be vulnerable when it, when it really matters.

Jim Rembach (34:16):

What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?

Pam McLean (34:20):

Oh, best leadership advice I’ve ever received. Uh, uh, just really fully stepping into who, who I am.

Jim Rembach (34:30):

What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

Pam McLean (34:36):

Uh, I care, I have a major work ethic. I’m addicted to, uh, to new learning. And I like to challenge myself.

Jim Rembach (34:45):

And what is one tool that you believe helps you in business and life?

Pam McLean (34:51):

Well, I think, uh, today in, in my life today it is my self reflection practice, a meditation that I do.

Pam McLean (34:59):

And what would be one book that you’d recommend Spartan to our Legion. It can be from any genre. Of course we’re going to put a link to self as coach self as leader and your other books on your show notes page as well.

Pam McLean (35:09):

Uh, well, you know, I read a wide range, so LA last year for the first time in my life, if you can imagine, I read all of J R R Tolkien’s works and, and I find it powerful. I find his work to be a metaphor for the crazy world we’re living in today and, and how we, uh, how we walk through that with some grace. Uh, um, I, uh, I have a book, uh, let’s see if I can find this. Uh, I have loved a book called insight by Tasha Urick. Uh, which is about the best feedback we can get as a feedback. We ask for not, not the feedback that that someone offers us, but really taking that risk and saying, how am I doing here? What, what could I do that might make, make me even stronger? Uh, and I’m reading right now a book I have yet to tell you how, how it lands with me, why we can’t sleep, women’s new midlife crisis by ADA Calhoun.

Jim Rembach (36:09):

Okay. Fast literal, and you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fast leader.net/pam McLean. Okay, Pam, this is my last Humpday hold on question. Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25 and you can take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you, but you can’t take it all. You can only take one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

Pam McLean (36:33):

The skill that I would take back with me is to hold back nothing. To know that this life is very short and, and, and to really step in, be fully engaged, take chances, uh, and uh, lean in. Yeah.

Jim Rembach (36:52):

Pam, I had fun with you. How can the fast leader Legion get in touch with you?

Pam McLean (36:56):

Uh, I am, uh, at www Hudson institute.com and uh, you can also find me on LinkedIn and leave a message and it’s been great being with you,

Jim Rembach (37:09):

Pam McLean, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom in the fast leader Legion honors you, and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Thank you for joining me on the fast leader show today for recaps, links from every show, special offers and access to download and subscribe if you haven’t already head on over the fast leader.net so we can help you onward and upward faster.