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Samuel Bacharach | Transforming the Clunky Organization

222: Samuel Bacharach: Leaders listen, apologize, and move agendas

Samuel Bacharach Show Notes Page

Samuel Bacharach was a new professor at Cornell and was called out for not following procedures by an office administrator. Initially, he refused to listen but then apologized for his behavior. A year and a half later, this woman helped him to negotiate a salary bonus. From then on, he built his career on the interpersonal stuff.

Samuel Bacharach was raised in Brooklyn, East New York before moving to Jamaica, Queens. Growing up in two working-class neighborhoods he had absolutely no aspiration of going to college and becoming a Cornell professor. Simply put, anyone growing up in the neighborhoods of New York during that era develops a sense of survival, a deep appreciation of what it means to be on a team, and get people on their side. In many ways the core of what Sam believes in goes back to those days.

He stumbled into his academic career at Cornell University, coming to the faculty in 1974. He is the author or editor of over 100 academic articles and 20 books. Sam has always had an interest in leaders and leadership. For him, leadership boils down to the skills of execution. In Get Them on Your Side and Keep Them on Your Side he introduced readers to the concepts of political and managerial competence.

More recently, he published The Agenda Mover and Transforming the Clunky Organization. The Agenda Mover explores the skills that leaders need to develop to get things done, and Transforming the Clunky Organization discusses the characteristics that keep organizations from thriving and meeting their potential. He is currently transitioning from his academic role to spending more time on his writing.

Sam’s legacy, as an academic and author, is that everyone can lead, and that in the final analysis, leaders are those with deep empathy, street smarts, and the political savvy to move things ahead. Charm and charisma are simply not enough. Everyone can make it if they develop some fundamental core skills.

In collaboration with his wife, Yael, he founded the Bacharach Leadership Group, which focuses on training high-potential leaders at universities and Fortune 500 companies.

Sam lives in the Chelsea neighborhood in New York City.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @samuelbacharach to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow – Click to Tweet

“The capacity to lead in life, in your career, in anything, is in your hands.” – Click to Tweet

“You’re not trapped in your personality.” – Click to Tweet

“Getting things done in leadership is in your control.” – Click to Tweet

“What’s important is our capacity to change.” – Click to Tweet

“For God sake, get something done.” – Click to Tweet

“Clunkiness and myopia cause inertia and things get stuck and a leader can’t afford to engage in that.” – Click to Tweet

“You’ve got to have the political skills and competence to move ideas through the maze of clunkiness and the over-focus of myopia.” – Click to Tweet

“As a leader you’ve got to juggle, how much space do I give them and how do I make sure they don’t squander this organization.” – Click to Tweet

“How much control do you want to have; how loose, how much autonomy do you want to give?” – Click to Tweet

“Think about leadership; what you’re really talking about is facilitative versus directive leadership.” – Click to Tweet

“The leadership challenge for you is to understand the world you live in and the context of your business.” – Click to Tweet

“Good ideas are a dime a dozen. Getting something done is difficult.” – Click to Tweet

“Good ideas are simply not enough; you’ve got to get stuff done.” – Click to Tweet

“Leaders listen, leaders apologize, but leaders also move agendas.” – Click to Tweet

“Empathy is the key to success, political success, economic success, social success.” – Click to Tweet

Hump to Get Over

Samuel Bacharach was a new professor at Cornell and was called out for not following procedures by an office administrator. Initially, he refused to listen but then apologized for his behavior. A year and a half later, this woman helped him to negotiate a salary bonus. From then on, he built his career on the interpersonal stuff.

Advice for others

Empathy is the key to everything.

Holding him back from being an even better leader

A sense of insecurity.

Best Leadership Advice

Believe in the people you work with.

Secret to Success

I know that I’m not the smartest person in the room.

Best tools in business or life

I can work with a team and I stand by context.

Recommended Reading

Big Enough to Be Inconsistent: Abraham Lincoln Confronts Slavery and Race (The W. E. B. Du Bois Lectures)

Transforming the Clunky Organization: Pragmatic Leadership Skills for Breaking Inertia (The Pragmatic Leadership Series)

The Agenda Mover: When Your Good Idea Is Not Enough (The Pragmatic Leadership Series)

Contacting Samuel Bacharach

Website: http://blg-lead.com/

email: samuel.bacharach [at] gmail.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samuelbacharach/

Resources and Show Mentions

Call Center Coach

An Even Better Place to Work

 

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

222: Samuel Bacharach: Leaders listen, apologize, and move agendas

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast, where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

 

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies that is the blueprint that develops high-performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen so go to callcentercoach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path e-book now.

 

Okay Fast Leader legion, today I’m excited because I have somebody on the show today who first of all is very quick-witted but then also is deeply tenured in a lot of different ways as well as in experience. Samuel Bacharach was born and raised in Brooklyn East in New York before moving to Jamaica Queens. Growing up in two working-class neighborhoods he had absolutely no aspiration of going to college and becoming a Cornell professor. Simply put anyone growing up in the neighborhoods of New York during that era develops a sense of survival a deep appreciation of what it means to be on a team and get people on their side. In many ways the core of what Sam believes in today goes back to those days. He stumbled into his academic career at Cornell University coming to the faculty in 1974. He’s the author or editor of over 100 academic articles and 20 books. Sam has always had an interest in leaders and leadership. For him leadership falls down to the skills of execution and get them on your side and keep them on your side. He introduces readers to the concepts of political and managerial competence.

 

More recently he published the agenda mover and transforming the clunky organization. The agenda mover explores the skills that leaders need to develop to get things done and transforming the clunky organization discusses the characteristics that keep organizations from thriving and meeting their potential. He is currently transitioning from his academic role to spending more time on his writing.  Sam’s legacy as an academic and author is that everyone can lead and that in the final analysis leaders are those with deep empathy, street smarts and the political savvy to move things ahead charm and charisma are simply not enough. Everyone can make it if they develop some fundamental core skills. 

 

In collaboration with his wife Yael he founded the Bacharach Leadership Group which focuses on training high potential leaders at universities and fortune 500 companies. Sam lives in the Chelsea neighborhood in New York City. Sam Bacharach, are you ready to help us get over the hump? 

 

Samuel Bacharach:      I’m ready. But if I can get you over the hump position is the question? 

 

Jim Rembach:    I’m sure you can. Now I’ve given my Legion a little bit about you but can you share what your current passion is before we can get to know even more about you

 

Samuel Bacharach:      This is the first time I was introduced with such a background go so dramatically back into my youth but I think as you grow older you go back to where you came from. I found lately that my current passion for all the hoopla is really to let people understand that the capacity to lead, and I spell leadership of a small L, I also mean that the capacity to lead in their life that capacity to lead in their career their capacity to lead in anything is in their hands they’re not trapped by their personality. I sometimes see this in my students, it’s easy if you’re this as panache, charismatic kid that comes from a great home and you go out there and you can do it but some of these kids need to learn that it’s in their hand. Like in like in organizations a lot of people out there with all this personality and charm and they keep talking to that. My passion right now is to really make people, and I don’t use the word empowerment in a loose way, but make people aware that it’s in their control getting things done and leadership is in their control. And that in a lot of ways going back to the beginning of my own biography. I’ve done these big corporations but some spending a lot of time working with corporations, I’m also spending time doing a lot of pro bono work and doing work with where I can really impact people’s lives and empowers them in that level. 

 

Jim Rembach:    As you were talking I started thinking about the depth and breadth of all of the research and knowledge that you’ve had exposure to over the course of these past couple decades in that I start thinking about the whole practical application piece. You and I talked about that progression and age and wisdom comes as I became certified in emotional intelligence empathy being important but then you say everybody could do it. But I’m like, EQ or emotional intelligence perspective there’s a whole lot of deficiencies in certain leaders that they really need to work on in order for them to transform a clunky organization or get people to follow with them.

 

Samuel Bacharach:      We all have deficiencies. We spend a lot of time coaching leaders on specific ways and we all have deficiency. But I think the first thing we have to do is make people aware that through understanding, self-reflection, training, reading, focusing your mind on the deficiencies you can make a difference in doing that. We all talk about training and teaching, what the heck that we really want to do we want to do that? We want to make sure the people can change their behaviors in ways that are functional. Look for those of you the whole world live happily ever after. But even in our personal life what’s important is our capacity to change. All of my work, which is not rocket science, but all my work is based on knowing—one of the things you wish you focus on, giving people the tools. 

 

We live in a world with a lot of—I come from old world I believe in a check list world. Tell people seven eight things that you think can help them and in fact you can make an impact. Tell organizations, tell leaders the things they’re doing wrong how can I do things different don’t make it diffuse make it concrete make it real and everything. Emotional intelligence, you’re certified in emotional intelligence, but you and I know that at least 60% of the stuff you knew before you were certified and that is you knew it because you are mostly intelligent enough to be able to get certified in emotional intelligence you knew you’re moving someplace. Sometimes I think the world is like The Wizard of Oz place, was it the Scarecrow, I was wondering—they all have the knowledge but thought they were an idiot but they just needed a degree. My whole point in life is tell people you’ve got this capacity let me help you tap it, here are the things you need to do.

 

Jim Rembach:    It’s funny that you say that the reason I became certified because I used to be very deficient at it. 

 

Samuel Bacharach:      There you go. For me training and leadership is signing out leaders, doing organizations giving them the skills to make the difference in a very concrete way not just giving them. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Talking about, talking about competencies and talking about skills I mean in the book, Transforming the Clunky Organization, men, I really like the framework and the model that you have associated with breaking inertia. You talk about the five challenges of breaking inertia, and I’ll just go ahead and read those real quick. You talk about questions that need to be asked. So you say, why is the organization sluggish? And so what we need from a challenge perspective is to evaluate its clunky and myopic tendencies to talk about what’s out there and so we have to apply contextual competence, which is leaders as explorers. And you talk about what can be done about it. We talk about applying ideational competence, which is leaders as innovators. And you talk about what support is needed and then you mentioned applying political competence, meaning leaders as campaigners and then how to implement managerial competence, leaders as sustainers. Now when you started talking about these five challenges of breaking inertia I have to really kind of go to the point of waiting scenario. If you start looking at levels of importance, where does that lie? 

 

Samuel Bacharach:     Let me take it one step back because you made my work sound more sophisticated than it is, I’m flattered, let me talk for a moment about the inertia issue why inertia. We’re sitting there, what do we really want from our leaders? We were living in a world right now and we turn on the news it doesn’t matter what your politics, what do you want? We want execution. For God’s sake get something done, in corporations get something done. Most of the time they’re stuck with this inertia. In organizations what I’m arguing is that in organizations inertia is always—it’s the clunky message that interest groups different businesses but that doesn’t mean your organizations not successful. Take a look at some of the largest organizations the complex ends in the—and it’s hard to get anything moving through them, so that’s the notion of being clunky. On the other hand, in some situations you got people so micro focused so myopic that they can’t get out of their mindset. You think all the organizations think of what’s going on in our country or politics on one hand you get this big clunky mess on the other hand you got micro focusing, micro macro focusing that myopic vision. We haven’t going on in news today, do we have any rocket scientist? So what does a leader do? A leader has to understand these tendencies and has to move things ahead in spite of these two forces that caused inertia. Clunkiness?  Clunkiness and myopia cause inertia to get things to get stuck and a leader can’t afford to engage in that he can’t afford to get stuck a leader must execute in spite of that. That’s the challenge of political leaders, that’s the challenge of corporate leaders and that’s what I’m trying to deal in this book. What I’m saying is there are and what I’m saying is there four or five things they have to do to make sure that won’t happen and that (10:44 inaudible) spoken.

 

Jim Rembach:    As you’re talking though, for me it’s like—you mentioned something about corporations and large organizations, I see that in small organizations too. 

 

Samuel Bacharach:     Absolutely, absolutely. You see, clunkiness is the whole idea. For example, why the word the word clunky for example? Why the word myopic? If you sit back for a moment and you just take the words in  any situation you’re corded either the situation is very clunky—think of the old world I’ve got all these elements—I worked for a lot of major corporations and one of these got an office in Bangalore, I know an office in Research Triangle,  San Jose, you name it I work in one of these large organizations, academia, worked in Walden Universities, they are large successful clunky organizations and now you’re sitting there in your office in the research office and you want to move something ahead, how do you do it? It’s impossible. On the other hand, you get all these people in these organizations I call myopia, micro stuck the same thing is true in start-up organizations with the move so fast. What happens in start-up organization sometimes get caught in all this myopia they micro focus or they become clunky by overreaching too quickly. And this same dichotomous tension and in dichotomous tension we face our life. 

 

My challenge to leaders is to understand this economy as the obstacle as the thing that causes the inertia. And then I said to people, okay, how do you break inertia?  it’s like the way you break it in your work, your bacon number one, by understanding the context in which your organization is operating by beating the signals in the environments, pick up new ideas. And then then we all hear about ideation by moving ideas to the organization, that’s the innovative part, coming up with ideas. Think of your own world, you can think of what you want to do in your career you expand what you want to do in your career and then you build on it you ideate on it so that’s the whole idea of leading for discovery. But the problem in the world we live in people have plenty of great ideas. Look at our Congress there’s plenty of great ideas. Look at our major corporations, our corporations are totally innovative. People think, that’s great, yeah right, so what if you have a great idea in organization and you can’t get it through the system? Great idea is simply not enough. Then I ask our people you’ve got to deal with delivery you’ve got to have the political skills, the confidence to move ideas through the maze or clunkiness and the over focus of myopia.

 

Jim Rembach:    As you were talking to I started thinking about, okay, so the political aspects I kind of get that. I get that whole influence and psychology—

 

Samuel Bacharach:     And they’re forming coalition and winning people over. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I get that part, for me though when I started thinking about the actual execution piece because you call that—there’s a particular part of the book for me that just totally blew up at me when you start talking about the execution piece. In the book you talk about it being monitoring for tight and loose execution. What I’ve often see is that people put in tight types of measurements in place and expect to have a loose outcome, that’s more innovative and creative, or they do the reverse and want to have something that’s a little bit more structured.

 

Samuel Bacharach:     I’m very taken by—this one’s a heck of a good question on emotional intelligence, I’m very taken by that. One of the things that’s haunting me in my entire career is that distinction sometimes goes by the wayside so I really kind of very thankful that you picked it up and I think it’s actually a very important point with coordinate. If you think about it that distinction is at the heart of all leadership and management training. Let me just give you an example, I don’t know if you’ve had the good fortune to have a child or any children—three good Lord, your main worry is oh, my god it’s 10 o’clock at night where are they? On the other hand you go, well, I don’t want to squeeze them I have to give them the space I got to give them a little autonomy if I get too tight about this I’m going to choke their creativity I’m going to stifle their growth on the other hand you’re standing there, if you’re a neurotic father as I am you’re trying to think, okay, I’ll call him a 10:30. I’m saying this jokingly, attach to management challenge that’s the management challenge. It’s the challenge of understanding of how tightly or loosely you want to be. 

 

For example if you want to be innovative and give everybody all the space in the world you’ll be very loose and if on the other hand you’re very concerned about the tight execution you’ll be very prescriptive. But in this world where uncertainty is all around you’ve got to sort of balancing you as a leader have got to juggle you got a juggle. Just like as a parent, how much space do I give them? And how much do I make sure they’re safe?  Same thing as a leader in organizations, how much space do I give them? And how do I make sure they don’t squander this organization to death? That balance. We can talk about that. That is one of my favorite points is all too often ignored, that is the key question to me in management that is the Ying and Yang of management. How tight? How much control do you want to have? How loose? How much autonomy you want to give? So if you think about it control- autonomy everything else besides that mattered this is the heart of the whole thing you’re absolutely correct. 

 

Jim Rembach:    You had mentioned before we actually started this interview that you’re actually working on yet another book to actually dig deeper into that particular time.

 

Samuel Bacharach:     That was more as a threat than a promise but be patient but be it the case yes and I am. Because in doing this volume, and I would welcome that conversation and the future was still even off the air, doing this value that notion actually became, and I went back to some earlier things that actually became very important to me and in a real sense. Let me give you an example, think about leadership, what you’re really talking about is facilitative versus directive leadership the idea of do want to be the leader that facilitates all these group? How many times you’ve been in the meeting? And there’s a leader saying, okay, they’re discussing I’m giving the ideas they’re putting ideas they’re doing ideation there ideating you to death there are more in the room and they’re wonderful they’re cohesive and you’re going, dear God, when is this meeting  going to be over so can we get this project moving? Okay? Alright? On the one hand we live in a world of interacting, how do you balance the two? How do you call off that meeting and say, okay, enough let’s move on. I know how Michael that actually sounds. For example, example in design, in innovative organizations if you are working in a lot of organizations you know that design and programs, they need resources. There are also tech junkies out there. If you can tell me the opportunity—or this machine we need them? When you give them enough resources, let me say, wait, wait up to here because I can’t do everything I know it sounds interesting but let me you even the terms of evaluation. Think of all the evaluation and the feedback systems, you now have a matrix list of everything on the list, that’s great. You got the 50 items you want them to do, you wanted to fly to Europe, maintain course, get along with everybody, live happily ever, deliver the party, got a 50-point list. What if all they’re doing is operating towards your list? What if you want to say, I want a more subjective evaluation? Let me give an example, you’ve got kids—you’ve got kids in school?

 

Jim Rembach:    Yes. 

 

Samuel Bacharach:     Okay, so now the teacher comes and says okay, here’s the list 62 things we did right for your kids. And you’re going, yeah, but they still somehow and in your stop big way stood up here some place. Point is, one is subjective how do you loosen tight? That’s the world people live in. Let me just make a little point here, people love making things tight because it’s good about execution but the truth sometimes it makes things tight because, as they used to say in the in the military it covers and other parts of their body because it say, oh, here are the 37 things we did it exactly what you wanted us to do it. I’ll give you one of my favorite example, years ago I was on a plane, not years ago I have on the plane quite often since then, I was sitting next to a friend of mine who is still flying, and this flight is 747, but this case he was sitting next to me. He said to me, any idiot can fly a 747 because it’s self-prescriptive by the numbers. If it is that tight—I said to him, well, then why are the pilots in those days they got paid well?  I’m not sure what their salary is but hopefully they’re still getting paid—if that’s the case if anybody can fly 747 then why do they get paid so well? And he said for the five minutes an idiot cannot fly 747. 

 

The point is, when do you loosen and when do you tighten? Great question. I get carried away I think I just talked about my entire new book out nonstop from New York, but that’s the idea, that’s the idea. I’m working on that I think it’s a very important point. It’s also by the way in startups organizations isn’t any type of organization.

 

Jim Rembach:    For me  well and for me as you were talking I started thinking about something that has resonated with me for a long time about this particular issue and talking about leading and so when you start referring to like creatives are a creative group or a group that likes to ideate is you don’t give them the entire beach to go play in the sand with you give them (21:39 inaudible) 

Samuel Bacharach:    And that’s why one of the one of the interesting questions is—I’m too old to be planning with this really on the money. Here is the question, let’s talk about ideation, I’ve been in lots of ideation session with my group we get tons of points on the board, I remember one of the group in Virginia and there’s all the ideas on her boards and the point was the following, as a leader you don’t want to constrain that but you also want to take those lists and help frame it. If you are in a hotel business you’re not in a bowling business, you want to frame it so we’re talking about constraint creativity. You as a leader, and that’s why I said is a leader you have to understand your environment and what the competition is doing, you bring the frame you let their inside work within the frame that you and your colleagues worry about and sometimes they’ll shake your frame. The leadership challenge to you is to understand the world you live in understand the context of your business understand your competition so you can frame the process and they work within that frame. 

 

Jim Rembach:    It’s almost like really the art of divergent and convergent thinking.

 

Samuel Bacharach:    That’s right, that’s right, you’re good the idea is exactly that. Currently right now we’re running a two days tutoring session where we’re taking a group of people Lida gave it to them all much in a moment and what being run right now in fact though we take we started with

 

the leadership team put out all their broad ideas, the framed ideas, they’re just brought team which is in converging, we’re now taking group about 30 people would you believe in their room, they put all the ideas on the board now the leadership team comes back together and we all now begin to converge. We look at what’s on there, and convergence to me has to do with beneath the themes how many ideas can we instill down? It is exactly that. One of the things that I think we forget, and I discussed it and not to plug the book, and that is exactly why I talk in the book as leading for ideation. That ideation not occur without that some tightness if needed. I hope your participants is not thinking the two of us having like one super intellectual trip here. But it is neither important question for people to think about I mean they really are. Think of you own world, again I go back how much control do you want to have? When do you choke your organization to death? Or when do you—you have no guidance at all. Many of our corporations—if you go back to Kodak for example, you go back to Kodak and really look, everybody talks about Kodak. When we pictures today lets go and ask Kodak. The point is if you go back to the organizations that blockbusters and you begin to realize at the heart of all of these things is leaders not dealing with these type of issue. It isn’t because they didn’t get along with their mother and they didn’t have a deeper understanding of life. I’m not a big personality, I believe that personality gets you in the door and the psychological potion gets near the door. Leaders have to listen but why are they listening? They’re listening so they can pick up good ideas and they can work with people move things forward. The world is not simply dictated by your charm you have to have these skills. I have a very executable notion of leadership it’s not simply about this psychic mindset.

 

Jim Rembach:    As I’m sitting here thinking, wow, going back to your bio and how many things you’ve contributed all of those things I know you’re obviously a very inspirational person. And one of the things that we use on the show are quotes to help inspire us. Is there one or two that you can share that you like?

 

Samuel Bacharach:    Yeah.  When I left for graduate school, my father passed away, who worked in Brooklyn in a place called Domino Sugar which is now condominium, I left for graduate school to go to the University of Wisconsin, in his old Plymouth and he sit there and he said to me, now you’re going out there—when I grew up out west was Ohio and he said to me, look the only thing I can hope is just try not to screw it up. Every time, whether it’s before this interview, anything else the whole idea is just not to mess it up. To me messing it up is understanding one simple thing, good ideas good intentions are a dime a dozen getting something done is difficult. Sometimes I read or see an idea—thank you for the statement about my career, sometimes I see ideas and what people have accomplished they’re able to take a simple idea and push it so far. Think of something, how many have ever though in your entire life, we all travel with our parents when were younger, how many are in your entire life have ever thought of a concept, Oh, AirBnB, we didn’t think of Air BnB but we all know what B &B what but we didn’t push them, years ago simple notion. 

 

I sat in my basement in Ithaca, New York with some called bit net it was the Internet, before the Internet. I said, oh, wow this would be a great way of doing libraries and books and I had this idea. Well, folks, there ain’t no backrag.com there isn’t amazon.com. You can’t screw it up, good ideas are simply not enough you got to get stuff done. And that said, and that’s what I put all my focus on in my work, giving people the capacity in organization and their life to get stuff done.

 

Jim Rembach:    With the getting new things screwed up things that happens as well and they’re learning on things and we share those on the show about times where we’ve had to get over a hump. Is there a time where you’ve been able to do that that you can share? 

 

Samuel Bacharach:    Sure, sure. Daily. I think the learning opportunities that we learned them all is from interpersonal relations and interpersonal learning opportunities. I have been very blessed by the people I work with and sometimes I think I’ve been blessed by the fact that every so often they were cursed by my presence. I worked with number of people and one of them is a woman I worked for the last 17 years or something. When she came to work for me I understood how bright I was, because I was a professor, all the time very quickly I understood that I may have the degree but she had the wisdom and the sweet spot and we became a great team. We became a great team because of hopefully our capacity to listen to each other to tell each other to shut the heck up and I think you learned from interpersonal stuff. But the one person, I want to share with you very quickly on learning—when I came to Cornell many, many years ago, and I mean many, many years ago, there was a woman working and I made phone calls, long-distance phone calls you folks remember what long-distance phone calls were? I made long distance phone calls, the reason I made this long distance phone calls, I was only there for six months but my heart was broken my dead girlfriend was living in Switzerland so I made this long distance phone calls. The woman that is in charge of the office call me and said to me, you’re not supposed to be making long-distance phone call from your office without permission. I got irate. I said, I’m a professor here and I walked up the stairs and said, and as I got up the stairs I remembered my father and I walked down stairs and I apologized to her. Here’s the point, a year and a half later I received the grant and the then dean, who was a dear friend of mine many years ago tell me that he would give me like 1/10th of something of my salary and I should be thankful for it. This woman calls me a few days later and said, I got to talk to you, and she said between you and me, she said, you’re entitled to 2/10th salary go back and negotiate. I went back and negotiate and got 2/10th salary. Had I not apologized to her had I been the same arrogant s.o., whatever you guys want to call it on polite terms, I never would have got next to money. Had I not learned to work with my colleagues in this office I couldn’t publish about my colleagues if my life depend on it. So my career has been based on that that’s the stuff I’ve learned. The interpersonal stuff, leaders listen leaders apologize but leaders also move agendas. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Okay, Fast Leader legion were with Dr. Samuel Bacharach and let’s take a quick message we’re going to come back for the hump day hoedown. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor. 

 

An even better place to work is an easy to use solution that gives you a continuous diagnostic on employee engagement along with integrated activities that will improve employee engagement and leadership skills in everyone. Using this award-winning solutions guarantee to create motivated productive and loyal employees who have great work relationships with their colleagues and your customers. To learn more about an even better place to work, visit beyondmorale.com/better.

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright Fast Leader legion it’s time for the Hump day Hoedown. Okay, Samuel, the Hump day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Dr. Samuel Bacharach, are you ready to hoedown? 

 

Samuel Bacharach:    Sounds a little too ready, since I’ve never been to a hoedown I will fake this real good. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What do you holding you back from being an even better leader today?

 

Samuel Bacharach:    A sense of insecurity.

 

Jim Rembach:    What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?

 

Samuel Bacharach:    Believe in the people you work with. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

Samuel Bacharach:     I know that I’m not the smartest person in the room.

 

Jim Rembach:    What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

 

Samuel Bacharach:     I can work with a team and I stand by context. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What would be one book that you’d recommend to our legion it could be from any genre, of course we’re going to put a link to Transforming the Clunky Organization on your show notes page as well. 

 

Samuel Bacharach:     The one book outside of my books which I like, there is one book and that that book is actually an interesting book it’s a book called, Big Enough to be Inconsistent. It’s a book about Abraham Lincoln and the emancipation proclamation and the whole notion of what was going in his mind as he was dealing with the emancipation proclamation as a leader. The book is called, Big Enough to be Inconsistent.

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay Fast Leader Legion you could find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/samuelbacharach. Okay, Samuel, this is my last hump day hoedown question. Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25 and you can take all the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you but can’t take everything back you can only choose one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

 

Samuel Bacharach:     Empathy, nothing else, that’s what I’ll take back. Being empathetic to people. Empathy is the one skill I would take back with me.

 

Jim Rembach:     Why?

 

Samuel Bacharach:     Because empathy is the key to everything. It’s the key to political success, emotional success and social success. If I understand where other people are coming from I understand their aspirations their pain. Whether I understand that in organization as a leader and say what other divisions are coming from. I understand where the businesses are coming from. Where I understand in my own personal life, where my children are coming from where my wife is coming from what if I understand in my own world where my friends are coming from where if I understand where my allies and my enemies are coming from I am empowered and I’m empower myself by understanding either. People think empathy is a touchy-feely notion and it is the key to success political success economic success and social success, the only thing I would take with me is empathy

 

Jim Rembach:    Dr. Samuel Bacharach it was an honor to spend time with you today can you please share with the Fast Leader legion how they can connect with you?

 

Samuel Bacharach:     Yeah, you can get me at sb@blg-lead.com or samuel.bacharach @gmail.com, http://blg-lead.com. I always welcome a little chat and some email exchanges. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Samuel Bacharach, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom and the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over to fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster.

 

END OF AUDIO 

[/expand]

 

Marcia Daszko | Pivot, Disrupt, Transform

217: Marcia Daszko: I was not familiar with any of those terms

Marcia Daszko Notes Page

Marcia Daszko didn’t know what she didn’t know. Now, she’s a catalyst for challenging leaders to think differently to realize results never before achieved.  A protégé of Dr. W. Edwards Deming, she’s co-founded two Deming User Groups, is a co-founder of the non-profit In2In Thinking, and assisted at 20 of the late Dr. W. Edwards Deming’s renowned 4-day seminars.

Marcia was born and raised in Iowa until she moved with her parents and three younger siblings to Los Gatos, CA in the 1970’s. She graduated from Santa Clara University with an English major focusing on journalism and later got her Master’s Degree in Mass Communication from San Jose State University. Her Dad’s career evolved from being a newspaper editor to sales to an entrepreneur of his own company for over 40 years—and Marcia followed his path.

With a natural interest in writing, reading, and teaching, after her college graduation, Marcia held positions as a 7th grade English teacher to a ten-year career in corporate communications and marketing in various industries. She began working to market the management consulting firm owned by Dr. Perry Gluckman and his team of statisticians and consultants in the 1980’s.

Soon Perry asked her to do business development and she asked, “What am I selling?” He sent her to a 4-day seminar about leadership taught by his friend, the world-renowned Dr. W. Edwards Deming. After that experience, Marcia asked Perry, “What was that all about?” Dr. Deming was in his 80’s, difficult to understand, and used a different vocabulary than Marcia was used to. Perry said, “I’ll teach you” and for the next three months Marcia read, studied, and had 3 to 4-hour conversations about new leadership thinking. Marcia said to Perry, “I want to hear Deming again.” Off she went to learn. At this 4-day seminar, the conference organizer introduced her to Dr. Deming, and he said “Come to dinner tonight.” She went and listened as a tableful of senior Fortune 500 executives, a Colonel, and an Admiral had a robust conversation.  She observed and listened. After dinner Dr. Deming invited her to attend the 4-day as much as possible to learn. He mentored her and she attended 20 of the 4-day seminars up until his death in 1993. After getting clients like Dow Chemical and Pepsi, Perry said, “we need your help to consult” and her consulting career began.

In 1993, both of her mentors died and Marcia wondered, “Now what?” With major clients, she continued her consulting work and in 1994 started Marcia Daszko & Associates. Now she speaks and teaches executive teams and her MBA students a new way to think about leadership—without the management fads and “best practices.” She begins every speech with, “My aim is to provoke your thinking.”

Her bold red-hot leadership book, PIVOT DISRUPT TRANSFORM helps people develop their natural leadership and lead with fewer struggles and failures. There is a better, revolutionary way to experience the joy in learning & leading.

Marcia resides in Silicon Valley CA.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @MarciaDaszko to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow – Click to Tweet

“We all have the child inside of us that continually needs to learn and develop and make a difference in this world.” – Click to Tweet

“It takes a crisis in order for things to drastically change and people to step up. But that requires courage and leadership.” – Click to Tweet

“What are we trying to accomplish together?” – Click to Tweet

“Are corporations growing in healthy ways or are they growing due to greed?” – Click to Tweet

“The culture in organizations is a reflection of the CEO, the executive team, and the Board of Directors.” – Click to Tweet

“It takes a lot of courage to not accept what is, but to say what is our future.” – Click to Tweet

“The executives at the top of an organization, it’s their job to develop all of their people, not just their executive team.” – Click to Tweet

“Companies that focus on having everyone learn and work and improve together, those are the companies that are going to survive.” – Click to Tweet

“Always link what you’re trying to accomplish with a customer.” – Click to Tweet

“Success is after everything else has happened.” – Click to Tweet

“Adults keep piling it on, one layer on top of another, until it’s so complex people are not productive.” – Click to Tweet

“Leaders are searching for ways for customers to be served. The issue is, what they need to know, they’re not taught in school.” – Click to Tweet

“Transformative change is like the caterpillar becoming a butterfly. Once you become a butterfly, you’ll never go back to being a caterpillar.” – Click to Tweet

“The more that people think, question and explore, the more they discover new opportunities and can make a difference.” – Click to Tweet

Hump to Get Over

Marcia Daszko didn’t know what she didn’t know. Now, she’s a catalyst for challenging leaders to think differently to realize results never before achieved.  A protégé of Dr. W. Edwards Deming, she’s co-founded two Deming User Groups, is a co-founder of the non-profit In2In Thinking, and assisted at 20 of the late Dr. W. Edwards Deming’s renowned 4-day seminars.

Advice for others

Question based on systems-thinking and statistical knowledge.

Holding her back from being an even better leader

Not enough hours in the day.

Best Leadership Advice

Learn, listen, and make a difference.

Secret to Success

I continually bring problems to the surface, and then try to get people working together to solve those with new ways to think about them.

Best tools in business or life

Curiosity

Recommended Reading

Pivot, Disrupt, Transform: How Leaders Beat the Odds and Survive

Profit Beyond Measure

The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement

Man’s Search for Meaning

Contacting Marcia Daszko

Website: https://www.mdaszko.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MarciaDaszko

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marciadaszko/

Resources and Show Mentions

Call Center Coach

An Even Better Place to Work

 

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

217: Marcia Daszko: I was not familiar with any of those terms

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast, where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

 

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies that is the blueprint that develops high-performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen so go to callcentercoach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path e-book now.

 

Okay, Fast Leader Legion today I’m excited because we have somebody on the show today who is going to defy many of your conventional wisdoms. Marcia Dazko was born and raised in Iowa until she moved with her parents and three younger siblings to Los Gatos, California in the 1970s. She graduated from Santa Clara University with an English major focusing on journalism and later got her master’s degree in Mass communication from San Jose State University. Her dad’s career evolved from being a newspaper editor to sales to an entrepreneur of his own company for over 40 years and Marcia followed his path. With a natural interest in writing, reading and teaching after her college graduation Marcia held positions as a seventh grade teacher to a 10 year career in corporate communications and marketing in various industries. 

 

She began working to market the management consulting firm owned by Dr. Perry Glickman and his team of statisticians and consultants in the 1980s. Soon Perry asked her to do business development and she asked, what am I selling? He sent her to four day seminar about leadership taught by his friend the world-renowned Dr. W. Edwards Deming. After that experience Marcia asked Perry, what was that all about? Dr. Deming was in his 80s difficult to understand and used a different vocabulary than Marcia was used to. Perry said, I’ll teach you. For the next three months Marcia read, studied and had three to four-hour conversations about new leadership thinking. Marcia said to Perry, I want to hear Deming again. Off she went to learn at this four-day seminar. The conference organizer introduced her to Dr. Deming and he said, come to dinner tonight. She went and listened as the table full of senior fortune 500 executives, a colonel, and an admiral had a robust conversation, she observed and listened. After dinner Dr. Deming invited her to attend the four day as much as she wanted to learn. Over the next several years she attended more than 20 of these four-day seminars until his death in

 

After getting clients like Dow Chemical and Pepsi, Perry said, we need your help to consult, and her consulting career began. In 1993 both of her mentors died and Marcia wondered, now what? With major clients she continued her consulting work. In 1994 started Marcia Daszko & Associates. Now she speaks and teaches to executive teams and her MBA students a new way to think about leadership without the management fads and best practices. She begins every speech with, my aim is to provoke your thinking. Her bold red-hot leadership book, Pivot Disrupt Transform helps people to develop their natural leadership and lead with fewer struggles and failures. There is a better revolutionary way to experience the joy in learning and leading. Marcia currently resides in Silicon Valley not too far from her son Timothy and two wonderful grandchildren. Marcia Daszko, are you ready to help us get over the hump? 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Absolutely, let’s go for it. 

 

Jim Rembach:    I’m glad you’re here. Now I’ve given my legion a little bit about you but can you tell us what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better.

 

Marcia Daszko:     My current passion—learning, helping people learn and lead and together in ways that they never have done before and making sure that path is wide open for also children of all ages. Because I think we all have the child inside of us that continually needs to learn and develop and make a difference in this world. 

 

Jim Rembach:    I’m glad that you shared that part about the child part because we’re going to talk about that in a second. However, in order to talk about that new way of thinking that difference component and all of that I think it’s really appropriate for us to kind of start off with something that you have. At the front of the book which is a bunch of questions, because for me as I went through these questions when I got to the end I got a big shocker. So let’s do these real—I’m going to do these as quick as I can, so you guys hang with me okay. This is an assessment of your current thinking and your actions—do you believe it’s important to hold individuals accountable? These are all yes-or-no questions, do you believe that it’s important to hold individuals accountable? Do you believe it is crucial to motivate your employees? Do you make most of your decisions based on conversations and intuition? Do you set targets and numerical goals for individuals to achieve? Does the executive team have annual strategic planning meetings to create the vision, mission, strategies, numerical goals, objectives and deliverables? Does leadership create a lengthy mission paragraph for the company? Does the organization continually adopt best practices and benchmark with other companies? Is change management adopted in your company but not much changes? Is resistance to change common in your culture? Do you believe the company should hire the best recruits with the best GPAs from the best schools to achieve the best results? Does management focus on quotas results the bottom line and the stock price? Are reorganizations and restructuring common and frequent? When times are difficult do you quickly respond by cutting costs? Do you believe you should empower employees? Do you believe it’s important to conduct annual performance appraisals and rank and rate the employees? Do you score the appraisals and tie them to compensation and bonuses? Do you incentivize workers and rewards and have a quota system? Now I know it took a while for me to read those but I think it’s really important because at the end from your scoring you say that, if you’d answered yes to more than two of these you need this book. And so for me I’m like, I don’t see how anybody is going to answer less than yes to 80% of those. Is that not true? 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Definitely, that’s true that’s what the world we live in. 

 

Jim Rembach:    When you start thinking about—how do we turn this tide when it’s kind of like a  salmon swimming up river in a current like they’ve never met, how do we do that?

 

Jim Rembach:    I have so many answers for that but I don’t know where to start. We sometimes need a crisis it takes a crisis in order for things to drastically change and people to step up but that requires courage and that requires leadership. And the courage and the leadership I think that we used to see decades ago I’m not seeing that same level of courage and leadership or the knowledge that people need. So for example, when Japan was in a crisis situation after World War II that’s when Dr. Deming went to Japan at the invitation of General MacArthur and helped Japan turn around and become a global competitor. At that point they were in a crisis so they were open to learning they had no way to go but up. And so that’s what we need to address in all of our organizations it doesn’t matter if it’s corporate education our education system is an extreme crisis and it’s a disaster in America we can see that because we see the results. If we focused on education and transform the education system that would impact the issues that we have with drugs and with gangs and with the dropout level and the declining education level in the United States. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Oh, my goodness. As you’re talking I started thinking about these massive problems and if they’re already in crisis and you’re saying that we need a crisis for them to transform, how long can we continue to be in crisis before that happens?

 

Marcia Daszko:     Well, we have been in crisis and that continues we can continue to decline. Even if we look at the economy and we think that it’s doing well when it crashes it’s going to be pretty severe. So there are some systems that are hiding some of the problems but we’re seeing those results. Sometimes the good times are just camouflaging the realities of systems that are really in crisis. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Okay. Then as you’re saying that I just wanted to ask the question, what systems are you talking about Marcia? What systems are actually the ones? Are you talking about the total government system and the duopoly that they have with Democrats and Republicans, is that what has to change? Is it—what is it? 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Yes, I think it leads us to the questions that leaders have to ask and that’s, what are we trying to accomplish together? Or are we trying as a nation and as leaders to have a great education system? A great democracy? A great social system a government agency system that supports citizens when they are in need? For example, mental illness and things like that. Do we have a system supports those things? Corporations are they healthy? Are they growing in healthy ways or are they growing due to greed? How healthy are the people in these organizations? The culture in the organizations is a reflection of the CEOs and the executive team and the board of directors. So if there are organizations across any sector that have high turnover rates and a lot of toxic internal competition then those organizations are reflection of the people that lead them. 

 

Jim Rembach:    As you were talking I started thinking about—everybody talks about the Jim Collins book, Good to Great and how that is—a business annal that will live on forever. However, if you look at those organizations that were case studied in 2018 I think only one of them exists I think they’re all gone all the others are gone. 

 

Marcia Daszko:     That’s very common. We have about 6,000 startup companies in the Silicon Valley Bay Area now and we’ll expect about 90% of them to go out of business. And of the first Fortune 500 list that came out in about 1955 more than 60% of those Fortune 500 companies are gone. Some of them were acquired but many of them are gone. In the past decade we’ve seen many of them disappear. We’ve seen many airlines disappear we’ve seen Montgomery Ward, and Sears is doing poorly, Circuit City Blockbuster—we’ve seen declines in many industries so that’s when leaders really—it takes a lot of courage to not just accept what is but say, how do we want to serve our customers, our members, our students? And what does that look like in the future? What are our future markets? So the book is really about when I think about pivot disrupt transform it’s really about innovation and leadership thinking and courage. 

 

Jim Rembach:    I think for me when you’re talking about that I’m seeing that at all levels of a particular organization because I know especially if I’m on the front line I see a lot of the mediocrity I see a lot of the exceptions and excellence that we have and I see a whole lot of things that we need to be eliminated. However, if I just keep going through the daily transaction on the frontline it’s never going to get fixed I’ve got to stand up. The book is part of an enablement tool for basically everybody within that organization to take what really is, I guess you’d say that, interruption before we have crisis isn’t it? 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Yes. The book is about developing everyone’s natural leadership. And the leaders the executives at the top of an organization it’s their job to develop all of their people not just their executive team but to develop all the people. When you think about—okay, if you have two different companies and one executive team believes in developing and investing in all of their employees and another company only invests in a select few like the management track or whatever which company is going to succeed? Because the one who has developed the skills and the knowledge and the systems thinking and focus on having everyone learn and work and improve together those are the companies that are going to make the difference and they’re going to disrupt and survive.

 

Jim Rembach:    That’s a really good point and I think for me then we start getting into discussion of learning quality because you could say that the learning industry, and you can categorize like one, but that’s probably a multitrillion-dollar type of industry, however, there’s a whole lot of different quality in learning that goes along there. More and more chief learning officers and people who are at the upper end of learning and development are talking more about the learner experience today than I’ve ever heard before and also about bent blended learning and having more journey paths for people’s development it’s the training used to be, sit in the classroom and it’s an event and I think that’s going when.

 

Marcia Daszko:     Yes, because it doesn’t engage people. Especially to millennials they don’t have that attention span to sit and be PowerPoint-ed to death and so those things need to go away. But my concern is that people with certain titles, whether it’s HR or chief learning officers or people in leadership and development in organizations, my concern is when they focus on systems such as performance management and performance appraisals and so forth they are just carrying on and trying to systematize bad practices best practices and management fads. It is the leadership oftentimes above them that has to say no. We have to stop these management fads and we have to challenge our current beliefs and assumptions and practices and start asking ourselves some tough questions. Only a few questions it’s not a lot of questions it’s not thousands of questions but it is challenging how they currently think what they’re trying to accomplish and always link what they’re trying to accomplish with the customer, with a member, with a student. Because if they’re not starting with their current market and a potential market they are just going to be like the hamster in the wheel and they’re going to focus on bad practices such as holding individuals accountable from the results of the system. The individuals didn’t create this system the executives did. So they need—if they don’t like the results they’re getting they need to change it. If they’re satisfied with the results that they’re getting even though they have all these best practices my question to them is, how much better could you be doing if you got rid of the best practices and management fads? 

 

Jim Rembach:    That’s a phrase that I’ve just actually over the years have begun to loathe which is best practices. To me that means they’re just common is really what it ends up being. One of the particular chapter that you have in the book really stood out to me out because I think it also addresses the issue that you’re referring to in regards to—hey, hey we need to take a step back and rethink question some of these fads and some of the things that we’ve been doing that we’ve been taught that we’re supposed to do and you talk about a child’s lens and new learning, what do you mean by that?

 

Marcia Daszko:     A child’s lens—the children see things simply and directly. Children ask the best questions we’ve heard that for years but when we talk about simply going back to the basic questions and asking, what are we trying to accomplish together? How will we do it? Who are we serving? And how will we measure progress not just success? Because success is after everything else has happened. So the child is able to cut through a lot of complexity and waste we’re adults, sorry, they just keep piling it on one layer on top of another until it’s so complex and people are so quote-unquote busy but they’re not productive. I can go into an organization have a few conversations and pretty quickly identify at least 50 to 80 percent waste of time, of efforts, of resources, when people are not asking the right questions. 

 

Jim Rembach:    I think that’s a great place to start is with that simple, innocence and the questions are a critical component and I think all of us probably need to do a better job of doing that. But when we’re talking about these particular issues, crisis, change, transformation, pivot and disruption all that it’s loaded with the emotion. One of the things that we like to do on the show is focus on that emotion in a better direction and we do that by looking at quotes. Is there a quote or two that you like that you can share?

 

Marcia Daszko:     The first one that popped into my mind was one of Dr. Deming’s quote and that was, leaders asked for help and they don’t know what they don’t know so there is knowledge that they need that they don’t have. He would often ask at his four-day seminars how could they know? How could they know there’s anything to learn? And that’s a thing we always have to be learning. I’ve got to give credit to two leaders that they are searching there are leaders that are searching for solutions they’re searching for answers are searching for ways to solve their problems they’re searching for ways for customers to be served the issue is that what they need to know they are not taught in school, that’s one thing. One of my clients recently said to me, Marcia, I’ve been the president for ten years and I have been struggling with the same problems for ten years until you came and you’ve taught us a totally new way to think and you’ve given us new knowledge, knowledge about systems thinking knowledge about statistical thinking. Now we can attack those problems and issues and we’re already making a difference and it’s only been six months and he had struggled for so long. I think people try to learn, unfortunately, they read articles or books or go to seminars or watch videos that are giving them the same old manners fads and best practices. There are probably a hundred books out there about how to improve your performance appraisal that’s the wrong thinking and that’s the wrong book. What they need to do is pick up the book that says abolishing performance appraisals. Get rid of it because performance appraisals end up putting them in a position to judge, blame, criticize, rank and rate employees. Those things are all negative not helpful. Being a judge who likes to do that? When we think about the multi-millions maybe billions of dollars that organizations spend on doing performance appraisals. When you just take the time that managers spend in doing performance appraisals and then giving feedback and if people don’t like the feedback that demotivates them and they feel unappreciated and they go look for another job so the turnover rate goes up. 

 

Jim Rembach:    It’s so true and it gets repeated over and again. You’re even talking about the experience that you had that I read in your bio when you first went to Dr. Deming’s seminar and you didn’t understand the language and came back and there was a whole lot of adaptation and learning and humps that you had to get over. And so we learn a lot when guests get to share those stories, is there a time where you got over the hump that you can share?

Marcia Daszko:     There are so many humps. The first one was probably when—after Dr. Deming’s seminar I said, Perry what was that all about? Because four days of trying to listen to someone who is difficult to understand in his eighties using a totally different vocabulary of system and variation and control charts and new knowledge and systems thinking I was not familiar with any of those terms in  context of improving a business. When I went back to the office—and then Perry guided me. One day I was so excited I was in a bookstore in Palo Alto and I came back to the office and I had a whole armful of books they were about quality and learning and leadership and I didn’t know any better I was brand new. Perry looked at the books and he separated them into two piles, this is good this is good this is trash this is garbage take these back to the store. He had the ability with his knowledge to discern the difference between good leadership learning and the management fads that some people were gurus back then we’re pushing. That’s what it takes us to really learn but question and say, when you look at a system and you want to optimize a system and you want to look at the data over time to make better decisions how can you do that and where can you continue to learn so that it will be effective? If you’re learning and learning and reading and going to conferences and you’re not improving you’re improving you’re not feeling that things are improving and transforming you’re reading the wrong things you’re not getting the guidance from the right people. You need to disrupt what you’re doing and seek out other resources.

 

Jim Rembach:    As you were talking I started thinking about what I’ve mentioned many times is that you can’t be a leader and coach people if you also are not receiving that. Because like you said when it kind of when we started what Dr. Deming said they don’t know what they don’t know you’re asking them for support and questions there’s nothing in the well so you have to continue to find that and you need to have somebody as a coach to really do that. We talked about reading a book and things like that and that’s great because we all can absorb knowledge but I think the critical point from what I’ve picked up from what you said you need somebody to help, encourage you, and challenge you and that can only come from another individual it doesn’t come from a movie or a book. 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Yes, and that’s the key because great, I don’t want to go into that coaching name too much label because there’s so many thousands of coaches out there that don’t have knowledge, they can get certifications and they say, oh I’m a certified coach. And it’s like, what is your knowledge? Can you help leaders transform their personal leadership to help them transform their organization and make a difference in the world? And if they can do that, fantastic, but—most I don’t think they can. I think one of the most important traits of a great coach is, number one, they have to have that system statistical knowledge. Secondly, they have to be very provocative in their questions to really get their leaders to think to really challenge what they’re currently thinking, believing, assuming, doing what are they investing in. I don’t go into organizations and help them transform by being their best friends that’s not the aim. The aim is to make that difference with them by challenging them. There are times that when they are in reflection mode, they reflect back on things I used to do. I have had this happen to my surprise several times where I’m having a conversation with one of the executives and they start to cry. And I asked, are you okay? And they say, yes, I was just thinking about how I used to treat people how I used to lead how I used to make decisions and the impact that I had, I’m so sorry about that.  But that’s where Dr. Dimming’s quote comes in so powerfully how could they know? How could they know there was anything to learn? They were just doing their best. Best efforts and hard work and making decisions by consensus those are not helpful so we need to learn a different way to disrupt our own thinking and really believe that transforming ourselves and our organizations and our communities and our society it’s important it’s the right thing to do and there is a way. So for example in the book, there are three parts and the first part is things to stop doing because otherwise if just want to start doing new things well they have still in place a lot of bad things those management fads and I tell them it’s like trying to put fresh strawberry jam on moldy bread. You’ve still got the moldy bread and you’ve got to get rid of the moldy bread simultaneously that’s you’re learning how to make transformative change not merely change. Because if you change you can change back. Transformative change means it’s like the caterpillar becoming a butterfly, once you’re a butterfly you will never go back to be a caterpillar. Once you’ve learned new think new leadership thinking based on systems thinking and statistical thinking and strategic thinking about planning not just strategic planning in the traditional sense. Once you learn these new concepts and get help applying them then the sky is the limit. I often say then to my executive teams once they learn those concepts and how to apply them get out of the way of your people because they will take you where you’ve never been before that’s transformation. 

 

One of my clients was a 30 million dollars and wanted to take his company to 35 or 40 million and I said, okay, let’s not think about the numbers let’s do what we need to do. I began working with them and they went from 30 million to 300 million. But had he given them that arbitrary numerical goal of 40 million when they got to 39 to 40 million they would have slowed down or stopped and they wouldn’t have experienced what they got to experience together. 

 

Jim Rembach:    That’s a great story. I sure hope that more and more folks get exposed to your work and that we can start attacking those types of problems as well as some of those huge problems we talked about earlier. So the Fast Leader Legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor.

 

An even better place to work is an easy-to-use solution that gives you a continuous diagnostic on employee engagement along with integrated activities that will improve employee engagement and leadership skills in everyone. Using this award winning solutions guaranteed to create motivated, productive and loyal employees who have great work relationships with their colleagues and your customers. To learn more about an even better place to work visit beyondmorale.com/better. 

 

Alright here we go Fast Leader legion it’s time for the Hump day Hoedown. Okay Marcia, the Hump day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us a robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Marcia Daszko, are you ready to hoedown?

 

Marcia Daszko:     Definitely let’s go. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Alright. What is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

 

Marcia Daszko:     Oh, enough hours in the day. There are so many things I want to do but sometimes I need to sleep. 

 

Jim Rembach:    So what is the best leadership advice you have ever received? 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Learn, listen and make a difference. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

Marcia Daszko:     I continually bring problems to the surface and then try to get people working together to solve those together with new ways to think about them. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

 

Marcia Daszko:     Curiosity. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What would be one book that you’d recommend to our legion, it could be from any genre of course we’re going to put a link to your book on your show notes page as well. 

 

Marcia Daszko:     Okay, first things that pop into mind first books are one is called, Profit Beyond Measure, it helps people think differently about results in the bottom line. And another one would be The Goal, it’s powerful it’s been around for decades. And another would be, Man’s search for Meaning.

 

Jim Rembach:    Okay, Fast Leader legion you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/marciadaszko. Okay, Marcia, this is my last Hump Day Hoedown question: Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25. And you can take all the knowledge and skills that you have and take them back with you but you can’t take it all back you can just one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

 

Marcia Daszko:     The ability to question based on systems thinking and statistical knowledge. And the reason I would take those questions is because the more that people think, question and explore the more they discover new opportunities and can make a difference. 

 

Jim Rembach:    Marcia, thank you for sharing your time with us. Can you tell the Fast Leader legion how they can connect with you? 

 

Marcia Daszko:     They can contact md@mdaszko.com or take a look at my website mdaszko.com and for sure take a look at my book there’s contact information in the book.

 

Jim Rembach:    Marcia Daszko, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can elp you move onward and upward faster.

 

END OF AUDIO 

 

[/expand]

 

Lori Bocklund of Strategic Contact

172: Lori Bocklund: Life’s too short to live this way

Lori Bocklund Show Notes Page

Lori Bocklund and her husband lived in the Washington DC area during 9/11 and then the anthrax scare and the DC sniper. She was living in constant fear. Despite loving where they lived, they decided to move. But they didn’t know here they wanted to live. After finally figuring that out, she took an even bigger risk which paid off in her becoming one of the leading authorities on contact center technology.

Lori was born in Marquette, Michigan, so that makes her a “Yooper!” She was raised in the Midwest, with a short stint in the south in the 60s. That combination gives her a latent Minnesota accent, in spite of the fact that when she moved from Goldsboro, North Carolina, to Burnsville, Minnesota, at age 8 she said “y’all” and “yes mam” routinely.

Lori is the youngest of three but has defied the stereotypes of the youngest child throughout her life. She had an idyllic childhood, playing many sports and loving math and science, along with writing.

Lori decided to follow in her father’s footsteps and study engineering. She chose South Dakota State University for its engineering program, strong (but not very big) community, and blossoming women’s sports. As a Briggs Scholar and Track and Field and Cross Country athlete, she received an excellent education, was a member of two national championship teams, and built life-long relationships with her teammates.

Lori started her career in systems engineering, working on “nuclear survivable communications” (this was the early 80s!) and then escaping to the less scary world of air traffic control systems. These jobs had nothing to do with contact centers! She earned her master’s degree in engineering from George Washington University.

She then stumbled into call centers and found joy in using both her technical and communications skills in a sales support role. She moved into the world of consulting in 1993 where she continues to love the challenges of helping clients solve problems and improve their operations and use of technology. She started her own company, Strategic Contact, in 2004, and has a wonderful team of similarly experienced consultants working with her.

Lori is recognized as an industry leader in contact center technology. She has written a book and countless articles and presented seminars around the world. She has earned a bit of a fan following from clients and consumers of her thought leadership contributions because she has that unique combination of technical know-how and the ability to communicate it effectively, and she has fun sharing that knowledge! ICMI honored her with a lifetime achievement award in 2015. Her husband thought that meant they get to retire (but he was wrong!).

Lori lives in the great northwest in Beaverton, Oregon (where she strives to be accent neutral). She and her husband met on a bike ride and still love to get out on the roads and trails and put in some beautiful miles. She also still runs, hits tennis balls, hikes, cross country skis, and otherwise tries to stay in shape. Her lucky Labrador Retriever, Gobblet gets two walks a day and is the most spoiled member of the family.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @stratcontact to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow Click to Tweet

“Spend an hour or two a week reading things you’d think everything was artificial intelligence.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet

“Nobody has enough time, money or resources to invest in all of the things that are being thrown at them.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“It’s up to the buyers to differentiate, and that takes time.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“Spend the time to dig deeper and do some due diligence.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“Get some help if you don’t have time to dig deeper yourself.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“It’s the wild west on both the buyer and sellers side in our market.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“Revenue increases while improving service and cutting costs are in tension with each other.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“Everybody wants to move fast, inevitably it slows down because of their inability to make decisions.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“People that want to keep all their options open are never going to get to a solution.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“People tend to reject information that doesn’t feed their position.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“The role of the contact center has elevated, I think it’s still problematic.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“The contact center is part of an ecosystem, it depends on so many other departments.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

“Just because you change all the time doesn’t mean you’re good at it.” -Lori Bocklund Click to Tweet 

Hump to Get Over

Lori Bocklund and her husband lived in the Washington DC area during 9/11 and then the anthrax scare and the DC sniper. She was living in constant fear. Despite loving where they lived, they decided to move. But they didn’t know here they wanted to live. After finally figuring that out, she took an even bigger risk which paid off in her becoming one of the leading authorities on contact center technology.

Advice for others

Learn change management and improve.

Holding her back from being an even better leader

Time. I live in a constant state of triage.

Best Leadership Advice

Do the right thing. Let integrity and honesty guide you.

Secret to Success

I have good problem solving and critical thinking skills.

Best tools that helps in Business or Life

Communication

Recommended Reading

ADKAR: A Model for Change in Business, Government and our Community

Contacting Lori Bocklund

Email: lori [at] strategiccontact.com

website: https://www.strategiccontact.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/stratcontact

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-bocklund-9947a85/

Resources and Show Mentions

Call Center Coach

Empathy Mapping

Lassoing the Wild West Contact Center Technology

Contact Center Executive Priorities for 2018

 

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

172:  Lori Bocklund Life’s too short to live this way

 

INTRO: Welcome to the fast leader podcast where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligent practitioner, Jim Rembach. 

 

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills from the six core competencies that is the blueprint that develops high-performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen so go to callcentercoach.com. To learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path e-book now.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Fast Leader legion, today I’m excited because I have somebody on the show today who I’ve known for a very long time, I’ve tried to get on the other show to be a guest for a long time and I hope I don’t mess things up because I want to make sure that you find out about her and her work because I think she’s absolutely brilliant.

 

Laurie Buckland was born in Marquette, Michigan so that makes her a yooper. She was raised in the Midwest with a short stint in the South in the 60s that combination gives her a Layton Minnesota accent. In spite of the fact that when she moved from Goldsboro, North Carolina to Burnsville, Minnesota at the age of eight, she said yo and yes ma’am routinely. Laurie is the youngest of three but has defied the stereotypes of the youngest child throughout her life. She had an idyllic childhood playing many sports and loving math and science along with writing.  Laurie decided to follow in her father’s footsteps and study engineering. She chose South Dakota State University for its engineering program, community, and blossoming women’s sports.

 

As a brig scholar in track and field and cross country athlete she received an excellent education, was a member of two national championship teams and built lifelong relationships with her teammates. Laurie started her career in systems engineering working on nuclear survivable communications, many know that this was back in the early 80s. And then she escaped the less scary world of air traffic control systems these jobs had nothing to do with contact centers and she earned her master’s degree in engineering from George Washington University. She then stumbled into contact centers and found joy in using both her technical and communication skills in a sales support role. She moved into the world of consulting in 1993 where she continues to love the challenges of helping clients solve problems and improve their operations and use of technology. She started her own company strategic contact in 2004 and has a wonderful team of similarly experienced consultants working with her. Laurie is recognized as an industry leader in contact center technology she has written a book and countless articles and presented seminars all around the world. She has earned a bit of a fan following from clients and consumers because of her thought leadership contributions and because she has a unique combination of technical know-how and the ability to communicate it effectively and she has fun sharing that knowledge. ICM honored her with a Lifetime Achievement Award in 2015, her husband thought that meant that they could retire but he was wrong. 

 

Laurie lives in the Great Northwest in Beaverton Oregon where she strives to be accent neutral. She and her husband met on a bike ride and still loves to get out on the roads and trails and put some beautiful miles in. She also still runs his tennis balls, hikes, cross-country skis and otherwise tries to stay in shape. Her lucky Labrador retriever Goblet gets two walks a day and is the most spoiled member of the family. Lori Bocklund, are you ready to help us get over the hump? 

 

Laurie Buckland:     I am. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I’m glad you’re here. Now I’ve given my Legion a little bit about you but can you share what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better?

 

Laurie Buckland:     My current passion is reality. I’m not talking about virtual reality or augmented reality just plain old reality that’s because I think we all have too much info coming at us too quickly and nobody takes enough time to really discern hype from reality and that has big implications.

 

Jim Rembach:   Speaking of that whole reality piece and when you put it in context and combine it with the whole need for transformation, for me I get exposed to a lot of people wanting to do customer experience transformation and digital transformation and I don’t know what camp you may sit in but some people say one fits in the other, I don’t know which. But when you start also looking at a study that I have some access to some preliminary results from it, it says that people are only able to really invest like one or two hours a week and things that are going on outside of their organization and so when you look at the rapid pace of change the need to transform I mean there’s really no way that people can keep up with reality is there?

 

Laurie Buckland:     No, and I think that that the hour or two that you’re saying that studies pointing to might unfortunately be people absorbing information that is part of that hype that I’m mentioning. They take it at face value my big hot button the biggest on this reality thing is artificial intelligence which if you read things spend an hour to a week reading things you think everything was artificial intelligence right now. I think people need slow down and really get a better grasp of what that really means and then sort through the hype people are throwing at them and they need to do that to make good decisions because nobody has enough time, money or resources to invest in all the things that are being thrown at them but it’s tempting and it all looks too darn good.

 

Jim Rembach:   As you started talking I was starting to think about the word, seduction. Meaning that—look the reality is that vendors have to sell their products in order to say, a viable business, they are in a sea of sameness when you start talking about marketing messages and platforms to message on and that and the other and so they have to essentially seduce people into being interested in what they have to offer. So, if you start thinking about the whole seduction as well as so many of the pay-to-play models or platforms to be built, you don’t need to drop any names here, but we all know that those things exist  and being able to trust the message, doesn’t it just all feed into that transformed or I should say false reality?

 

Laurie Buckland:     Yeah, I like some of the phrases you’re using the sea of sameness is a great phrase. That’s why vendors are jumping on the bandwagon they’ve got to make it sound like they’re me too, it’s a different kind of me too then what we’re hearing in the regular news, but they want to say yes I do this stuff too and look what I’m doing with my fill-in-the-blank, my IVR, my CRM, whatever application routing, reporting, analytics they’re all kind of pointing to the role of artificial intelligence and making it sound really good but it is up to the buyers the users to differentiate and that takes time. That means we have to dive deeper and not just get enamored with or seduced by your word is a good one a particular solution or a particular concept and spend the time to dive in dig deeper do some due diligence bring in some help. I spend more than an hour or two a week to connect this stuff and so do analysts and others. So, get some help if you don’t have time to dive in yourself. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I think that’s a real good point. You and I had the opportunity to meet at an event last year and we actually did a short video interview and we talked about the wild, wild, west and there were several things that you talked about when you were explaining the wild, wild, west and one important and key component was that due diligence piece. You talked about pressure and you talked about need to move and when you started putting all of these variables together it made for—quite frankly, really important case to make sure that you are consulting with people who do look at this stuff more than an hour a week.

 

Laurie Buckland:     I think the wild, west is on both the seller and buyer sides in our market. The sellers are out there making massive changes the cloud which you alluded to earlier is a different way of buying artificial intelligence and lots of other innovations are coming in so there’s massive change and very fast change on the selling side from the vendors. And then the buyers are under massive pressure to move faster to accomplish revenue increases while improving service and cutting costs and we all know those three things are in tension with each other those are three dynamics that are difficult if not impossible to achieve at the same time. And so the buyers are under this pressure and get enamored with this stuff from the wild, wild, west. On the vendor side they’re living in the Wild West of I’ve got to move really fast and get something done and don’t have enough resources to do it. And so it makes for a really difficult dynamic for a lot of people I think so that’s why we end up helping people put together road maps do planning and assess what’s the priorities and what should be happening when and the interdependencies or help write down requirements and target the right vendors to meet a particular set of needs. Because those kinds of things do require some thoughtfulness and some good due diligence so that you’d spend the limited time money and resources effectively.

 

Jim Rembach:   Listening to you I started thinking about a conversation that I had the other day with somebody about what is referred to as convincer strategies. Meaning that we all go through a process by which is part condition, it’s part wiring, you and I had talked about people’s wiring earlier and most often fall into four camps and know that it’s conditionals. So, if I’m thinking about something that’s personal based or something like that it may be different than when I’m at work but they essentially fall into these four categories which is automatic means that they decide pretty easy they don’t they don’t need a ton of information in order to be able to make a decision and move forward. There are a number of times person, meaning I need to see  validation so many times before I can actually move forward and then some people are period of time. Well I’m not going to do anything I’m going to see how this all plays out and then maybe I’ll do something about it. And then other people are consistent meaning they get so caught up and bogged down in the weeds and the details that getting a decision out of them is just like pain. So, when you start talking about the different types of people that you are coming across and working with and ultimately supporting to make a decision what do you find you often run into?

 

Laurie Buckland:     I think we probably deal with all of those and maybe varying by client but it also may be varying with people within a client environment and it’s one of the great challenges of doing projects because everybody wants to move fast that’s one of the things we hear most often at the start of a project. I put project timelines together and almost inevitably it slows down because of their inability to make decisions. Some of that may stem from a mix of practices whatever you want to call those strategies that you just laid out. I use the phrase, shiny object syndrome that might go with that automatic they just get excited about the next thing and they’re want to go in a different direction. And then there’s other people that we have the FOMO, right, fear of missing out they can’t make a decision because they’re still waiting to learn more about—well, What about this? What about that? What about this? And with the different sourcing strategies right now that’s particularly difficult because people that want to keep all their options open are never going to get to a solution that they can feel comfortable with. That’s part of the Wild West right of the challenges that people face I think.

 

Jim Rembach:   Exactly. So, if we start talking about traps meaning that—okay, I do need to have some actions take place we’ve got to do something we’ve got to move. If you were taking in that whole thought process about those different types of people, what recommendations would you give somebody that has to make a decision to move forward, they should do what? 

 

Laurie Buckland:     Part of it is trying to give them enough information that’s targeted on their hot buttons and pain points. I’ve love to read about brain science and I’ve studied how we make decisions how people make decisions, there’s some really good books about that, people tend to reject information that doesn’t kind of feed their position so you have to work hard to get them to understand information that they might naturally reject because it doesn’t feed a given position. If you don’t know their position you got to dive in there a little bit and learn that and try and get to that. A good example is the cloud stuff. The fear they have is—I can’t make that decision because I got to know all the costs before I make a decision. There’s enough data out there and there’s enough high level stuff that you can put in front of people and say—well, here’s about how it would play out and look at the total cost of ownership timeline for them and play it out and then talk about how do you want to pay because it’s not just how much will it cost but how do you want to pay. For example I have a client right now they can look at it—these aren’t the exact numbers but you can pay $200,000 upfront or you can pay six or seven grand a month for five years, which do you want to do? if you’re going to sit on the—I buy the upfront for a long time it’s going to obviously be cheaper but that’s not how most people want to buy things these days. And so then it starts to help the decision process by looking more at how do I want to spend the money not what’s the exact number of it. Those are some of the things we have to help people sort through price and how they pay being a very key one but there are other factors as well.

 

Jim Rembach:   That brings up a really good point for me because I’ve come across certain situations where people would like to move forward and do certain things but—I think you may have mentioned this before they’re not really certain about their internal process and they move forward down a particular path and then find something out like—hey, this is the way procurement particularly operates. This is the way that we’ve had some changes take place and we have to acquire whatever it may be. How often do you see those types of things changing and stopping a process versus somebody’s just—where they need to be convinced to move?

 

Laurie Buckland:     It’s one of the reason why we try and get a cross-functional team out of the gates if there’s any kind of technology purchase going on. IT can have hot-button this procurement can have hot buttons a security and compliance group can have hot buttons—so we don’t want just one group of people, say the contact center is saying—oh, we need this new technology we want the variety of players that are going to be engaged in in that ultimately to be involved upfront so that you can sort through and we like to use kind of funnel visuals write them making funnels with my hands here. To say you’ve got a lot of options to start the way you narrow them is to consider those things that will be the key decision factors for your company. There’s no one right answer but we got to get the inputs from those various people because they all have different perspectives and different things that will drive a decision and then you can sort through the trade-offs in the context of that specific company’s position on how they purchase their views of security and who controls information and a variety of things, networks and all that kind of stuff. 

 

Jim Rembach:        Alright. So, you talked about something that’s critically important with any of these things because oftentimes we’re referring to an enterprise solution, enterprise impact we talked about cross-functional teams and being able to bridge those gaps and those things. If you start thinking about where things were say five years ago and prior versus where they are now, are you noticing that there are certain people who are now  part of that cross-functional team that weren’t before? And you’re like, hmm that’s unusual or that’s new.

 

Laurie Buckland:     Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything unusual right now that I would point to the security and compliance I mentioned I’ll call that a growing thing. And of course it varies with the size of the organization and the vertical market they’re in and financial services, healthcare, places like that have had to step up because of all the regulations and the certifications or compliance things that they have to think about. That’s probably the biggest change that we’ve seen and I wouldn’t necessarily call it new but I would call it really still growing and getting more and more complex and detailed and diligent, so that one’s a biggie. There’s definitely changes with how IT views things and that again can be very different from company to company and factor in size and vertical and a lot of different things but they’ve always been part of the discussion it’s kind of just changing how they play in the discussion. Because the changes on the IT departments side as well as changes in how the vendors offer and deliver solutions.

 

Jim Rembach:   When you start thinking—I remember being part of certain types of consulting projects where the contact center is one of the contributing areas in the whole decision when it comes to technology and communications. However, when you start looking at the raising of the need to retain customers and using the whole experience as a way by which we’re now going to grow the top-line revenue by getting more customers. Have you seen that the contact center is now taking more of a driver seat in the enterprise decisions? Meaning if it doesn’t work for the contact center there’s no way it’s going to work for the enterprise because it used to be that—hey, this works for the enterprise of the contact center has to get on board.

 

Laurie Buckland:     Right. And you mentioned in my intro I’m the youngest child I joke that the contact center is like the youngest child it gets all the hand-me-downs and that’s not a good thing from youngest child perspective most of the time. I do think that the profile of the contact center has elevated, I think it’s still problematic. We do challenges in priority survey every year we’ve done it for three years running now and our results are just published in January through contact center pipeline. It’s funny to me that the challenges and priorities still show a very strong problem in getting the respect for the contact center. It’s just still a big issue that that centers face and then the collaboration with other departments. I see improvement but I see opportunity it still needs to get better. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Who needs customers anyway? 

 

Laurie Buckland:     Right. So, I was on a webinar earlier today on journey mapping it’s part of why I think things like journey mapping and the customer experience those things have become high profile and trendy because people get it that we have to have that focus. We talk about the ecosystem all the time, the contact center is part of an ecosystem it depends on so many other departments and so many other departments impact it. There’s a strong need to have that—increase the understandings one of my hot buttons in the article about the survey results I gave three things that people if they want to start getting better awareness across other departments some things they can do some fairly practical and tangible things that are hopefully relatively easy to pull off to get people to understand the role of the Senate.

 

Jim Rembach:   I highlighted the results of that report also on an article that I had done for a call center coach which was actually picked up and syndicated by customer thinking and I really focused in on that whole—you’re welcome—I really focused in on the whole piece that came out in regards to change and transformation and I think that for me I took a little bit different approach I guess I might put my lens to it I guess you’d say and it really connected with a lot of people I got more feedback on that particular article, we’ll link it to your show notes page, there are many that I had written throughout the year, so thanks for doing that report and hope you continue to do it. 

 

Laurie Buckland:     Yeah, we will. 

 

Jim Rembach:   When we start talking about making these decisions and the pressure to perform and all of the things associated with where we are today and the increasing consumer demands and demands on the business from a threat perspective and disruption and all that it could just be charged with a lot of emotion. One of the things that we look at on the show in order to give us some that’s hopefully positive are quotes, is there a quote or two that you’d like to share?

 

Laurie Buckland:     Yeah, I collect quotes. I have a set of slides I put up when I’m doing my seminars at the conferences and play them at the start on the breaks so that people have something to look at and think about and laugh about. I’ll use one of my favorite quotes that I use there and it’s about change and the quote is—The only people who like change our wet babies and pan handlers—and I like it because it always gets a laugh. But it also kind of causes people to pause they have to think about it for a second and then they ahh hah they get it and I like it because it kind of catches people. A lot of business situations we have people say, oh we’re really good at change we change all the time and I’d like to differentiate that just because you change all the time doesn’t mean you’re good at it or that people like it or that you’re doing it well. And so, I like to kind of challenge people on that really very few people like change and when they do it’s really only when they’re in control of it. And so, we have to think about that and help people change effectively and that’s how you use technology well that’s how you get ecosystems to change and start to pay attention to the customer and the contact center and those kinds of things are pretty important. Change plays a huge role in them.

 

Jim Rembach:   I think you and I have talked many times and I know all of the people on your team have gone through change management and then something else which I think would help with the whole change process since it is so painful and that is improve. What does improv actually done for the work that you guys do?

 

Laurie Buckland:     I took my team to an improve workshop, I found out they were scared to death they told me this afterwards because they thought they were going to be on stage and stuff but it’s an improv application to the business world and they do some wonderful exercises. What we learned from that the biggest takeaway we’ve learned a bunch of different things but the biggest takeaway anyone who’s ever done anything with improv learns is that the answer is always yes at an improv if you reject something if you say no or you say yes but the improv skit will collapse. Using that skill in our business whether it’s interacting with each other or with clients it gives us a whole new way of sorting through things, solving problems, working as a team because somebody gives you an idea you don’t reject it outright you say yes and what can I do with this? And if you need to kind of take them in another direction you’re building on that and taking them along with you instead of causing them to cross their arms and get defensive or the analogy with the skit or things can fall apart, I love that. We still use that lingo when we talked with each other or when we’re talking about situation and we’ll say, what’s the yes end approach to solving this. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I think that’s a really great approach and it’s a really important thing for everybody to really know who’s listening is that one of the main objectives that when you want to get people to buy in when you want to collaborate, when you want to—or any of those things, is to never respond to whatever they say with but—or no—or anything that’s negative in any way she perform you want to try get alongside of them and that yes and is a great way to do it and it’s really habitual meaning that you have to create the habit. 

 

Laurie Buckland:     Very much so. And I have an article on that topic on our website if anyone wants to read it’s a fun thing to do.

 

Jim Rembach:   It’s extremely important advice, thanks for sharing it. Now I know that—we have a lot of things going on—you’re continually pushing, studying, learning and really making—and that’s how I think you contribute to make such a big difference it’s important to your DNA and the way that you operate. I know that there’s also a lot of humps that you’ve had to get over. If you start thinking about a hump that we can learn from what would it be?

 

Laurie Buckland:     Well I’ll tell the story about a—since we’re talking a lot about change probably one of the biggest changes I’ve made in my life about mid-career midlife as well, my husband I lived in the DC area on 911 that event obviously impacted all Americans in a tremendous way but I think anyone who lived in DC and New York I’m sure as well in those areas was impacted more. We had signs all over the place we had military patrols I walked the dog at five in the morning and the F16’s are flying overhead and it was just a very, very impactful, stressful thing. Then we had the anthrax threat and a lot of ongoing things and I came home from a trip once my husband had built our little stock in the basement because they were telling everybody to get ready for the next thing and it was awful. And then the DC sniper for those that remember that that occurred and that was kind of the last straw for us and we basically felt like life’s too short to live this way we’re living in constant fear. And it was an awful feeling we loved where we lived the work we did my job moves but my husband’s job don’t moved but we decided we were going to move we need to get out of there. So that’s a hard thing to decide when you love people and places. And then we didn’t know where we’re going and the next question was, okay, well where are we go? So we pursued a very methodical approach to figure out the answer to that and back to our decision-making discussion earlier we made a great decision we landed here in the Great Northwest in the Portland-Oregon area. We had to go through a lot to do that it was very exciting and incredibly scary at the same time but it worked out. And then that inspired that kind of changed that willingness to take some risks and take some trade-offs inspired me to start my own company. Months later that wasn’t the intent when we moved, but months later I got up the nerve to do that and it really was a lesson learned on both fronts. If you’re willing to take some chances and really risk things and make some big changes you can make some sacrifice you can have some big changes a very positive in your life.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, so I have to ask with both of you being quite the athletic folks was it because Nike is the center of the universe in Beaverton, Oregon was that it?

 

Laurie Buckland:     No, that actually did not weigh in but certainly the bicycling, my husband I met on a bike ride as you mentioned, and so were it were avid cyclists and quality of life, affordability, lots of different factors that we looked at. We went and visit—we had a short list we went and visited places and made our choice, and it worked out well. 

 

Jim Rembach:   For a very short time in high school my family moved out to Beaverton, Oregon and I spent the first semester of my junior year at Beaverton, high school

 

Laurie Buckland:     It’s a small world Jim. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Yes, I tell you. Unfortunately I didn’t get to finish which is very disturbing because for me, I was a baseball player and I played first base and their first baseman graduated the year before and so I was excited to get ready to play and we ended up moving and I’ll be gosh turned if the team didn’t win the state championship that year.

 

Laurie Buckland:     Baseball is big here people are surprised but it’s big here. Oh I see you said couple of national championships.

 

Jim Rembach:   Crushing blow. I have fond and fearful and dreadful memories of Beaverton but since you’re there I will focus on the positive side.

 

Laurie Buckland:     There you go.

 

Jim Rembach:   When you start thinking about where you are doing—yes you do some things consistently and you’re doing some new things I know you and Michael love to travel and all that. I know you have several goals that you’re always working on here and juggling, I should say, but if you are to pick one that’s most important to you which one would it be?

 

Laurie Buckland:     That’s an interesting question because I’m not the type to write down my priority list of goals or anything and I kind of view them as constantly evolving and having slightly different paths because our personal and professional lives are our—again we all pursue different goals in those areas so if I think about kind of top goals it’s around, I would say foundations. My view of live that I think probably aligned with a whole lot of people are to make an impact and contribute and help others. On the professional side you do that in ways related to your work, obviously for me, that’s helping a client solve a problem succeed helping an employee do something really well and coaching and developing them. Someone at a seminar come up to me and saying, wow! That’s was great I understand that in a way I never understood it before that was really helpful, so on the professional front that’s how I can make those contributions.  In my personal life that takes on a very different flavor in terms of the role I play as an aunt to wonderful nieces and nephew and volunteer work and things like that. So, kind of continue to evolve my goals and in each of those areas but that’s kind of the foundation I think of any goals that I’m working on at any given time.

 

Jim Rembach:   And the Fast Leader Legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor. 

 

The number one thing that contributes to customer loyalty is emotions. So move onward and upward faster by gaining significantly deeper insight and understanding of your customer journey and personas with emotional intelligence. With your empathy mapping workshop you’ll learn how to evoke and influence the right customer emotions that generate improve customer loyalty and reduce your cost to operate. Get over your emotional hump now by going to empathymapping.com to learn more. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright, here we go Fast Leader legion it’s time for the Hump Day Hoedown. Okay, Lori, the Hump Day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us a robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Lori Bocklund, are you ready to hoedown?

 

Lori Bocklund:   As long as I don’t have to talk as fast as you. 

 

Jim Rembach:   No problem. 

 

Lori Bocklund:   Let’s hoedown. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

 

Lori Bocklund:   I’d say time. I live in a constant state of triage and that makes it a little difficult for me and for those I lead. I think it’s something we can all work on and improve on all the time.

 

Jim Rembach:   What is the best leadership advice do you have ever received?

 

Lori Bocklund:   Do the right thing. Let integrity and honesty guide you.

 

Jim Rembach:   What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

Lori Bocklund:   I think I have really good problem-solving, critical thinking skills that’s what engineers do and I get to apply them in very interesting ways.

 

Jim Rembach:   What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

 

Lori Bocklund: Communication, that’s an incredibly powerful tool and something I think I do well maybe a little defying the stereotypes of engineers but writing and speaking and those sorts of things. 

 

Jim Rembach:      What would be one book that you’d recommend to our legion, it could be from any genre?

 

Laurie Buckland:     I always recommend people read ADKAR which is a change management book, that stands for  awareness desire knowledge ability and reinforcement, it’s a quick and fun read it will make you very dangerous to your friends family and people you work with and understanding how people do or don’t change.

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay, Fast Leader Legion you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/loribocklund. Okay, Andy, this is my last Hump Day Hoedown question. Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25. And you’ve been given the opportunity to take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you. But you can’t take everything back you can only choose one. What skill or a piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

 

Laurie Buckland:     It would be a tough choice between the change management and the improv they’re both so valuable, can I take two?

 

Jim Rembach:   We’ll let you do that. Why would you take those?

 

Laurie Buckland:     Because I think they’re very simple practical insights that help you work better with people. Understanding how we change or don’t why people resist change and how you help them through that so valuable. We look at every project through that lens and then the improve, you and I talked about is just a great simple little tool for thinking things through and not rejecting what people are trying to say or accomplish but incorporating that into the thinking and how you solve problems and work with them.

 

Jim Rembach:   Laurie it was an honor to spend time with you today. Can you please share with the Fast Leader Legion how they can connect with you?

 

Laurie Buckland:     Yeah, I’m a little old fashioned and the best ways are my email, lori@strategiccontact.com or give me a call I’d love to talk to people—503-579 8560, and I love LinkedIn as a great place to connect. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Lori Bocklund, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader Show today. For recaps, links from every show special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster.

 

END OF AUDIO 

 

[/expand]

 

Michael Gale - Digital Helix

171: Michael Gale: The ship we were part of building is no longer relevant

Michael Gale Show Notes Page

Michael Gale owned a number of trademarks on journey mapping when they built the methodology 14 years ago. But now he has to admit it’s no longer relevant because you can’t fit a journey map into a world of moments. With organizations now needing to digitally transform and customers being in complete control, Michael explains you must think and do things differently.

Michael was born in Exeter, England. His father was an academic, so the family moved around as his father gained seniority. Michael has lived in Swansea, Cardiff, Southampton, and moved to the U.S. in 1993.

His parents were happily married for 44 years until his father’s death 11 years ago. Michael has one sister who is currently a professor at the University of Manchester.

His parents were married extremely young and did nothing but love their children, stretch them, and rejoice in their journeys. Michael feels incredibly lucky. His sister is a certified genius and though Michael struggled, his parents never treated their children differently. From a very early age, Michael’s family would have deep debates at supper at 6.00pm every night. Michael’s mother is a brilliant ceramicist and his sister is an extensively published world expert on women in theater.

Michael immigrated to the U.S. in 1993 and was privileged to be part of an incredible company led by Peter Zandan, one of Austin’s founding 1990’s entrepreneurs. Michael then went to a company called Micron to lead their web. 1.0 revolution. From there he went off on his own to build two companies, which were both sold to Monitor Group, Forrester. Michael’s last company was sold to a $1bn+ consulting firm.

He is currently partner at inc.digital, which coaches and trains organizations to thrive in their digital transformations. And the co-author of “The Digital Helix” which shows what drives performance for digitally transforming organizations as well as the key components and mindset skills needed to lead in this digital-first world.

Michael wants people to be so well attuned to the power of digital transformation that they can drive changes and results they could never have imagined before.

Michael lives in Seattle with his life partner and best friend Lara. They’ve been married for 22 years and have three dogs they adore.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @MichaelGale to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow Click to Tweet

“Digital transformation is going to touch everything we do as consumers, citizens and business for the foreseeable future.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet

“Everything we touch, feel, experience and don’t even understand that’s there is going to be digitally transformed.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“You’ve got to dream what you want, because now the technology can give you those possibilities.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Creativity should generally overcome any problem.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“There is an intent to buy an answer when you need to breed your own system for doing it.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Only 16% of organizations are getting digital DNA right.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“If you can’t digitally transform in 2, 3 or 5 years, you might not be around in 10 years.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Really think big. Don’t think small. Don’t think incremental. Genuinely think how you can radically disrupt your own norms.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Tradition is just the illusion of permanence.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“You should not limit your imagination to history.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“All the most successful organizations planned marketing and communications as one flow.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“All this journey mapping, I don’t believe it’s valuable anymore.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Everybody is responsible to each other.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Strategy is about being in the moment and one step ahead; never go past the horizon.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Your strategy should be, how can we be successful and nimble.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“The ship we were part of building is no longer relevant.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“You can’t fit a journey map into a world of moments.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Customers are in complete control of what they want, when they want and how they want it.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“The world you’re trying to service is very different from the world you used to service.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

“Journey mapping is like putting a steam ship engine into a sailing boat.” -Michael Gale Click to Tweet 

Hump to Get Over

Michael Gale owned a number of trademarks on journey mapping when they built the methodology 14 years ago. But now he has to admit it’s no longer relevant because you can’t fit a journey map into a world of moments. With organizations now needing to digitally transform and customers being in complete control, Michael explains you must think and do things differently.

Advice for others

Be infinitely more aggressive and accept that really good things will happen.

Holding him back from being an even better leader

The inability to let go.

Best Leadership Advice

Make people the best version of themselves and organizations will thrive.

Secret to Success

I tend to work harder and faster and deeper than most people.

Best tools that helps in Business or Life

Innate sense of curiosity.

Recommended Reading

The Digital Helix: Transforming Your Organization’s DNA to Thrive in the Digital Age

Win Forever: Live, Work, and Play Like a Champion

Contacting Michael Gale

Email: Michael [at] inc.digital

website: https://www.inc.digital/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MichaelGale

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/migale/

Resources and Show Mentions

Call Center Coach

Empathy Mapping

54 Emotional Intelligence (EQ) Competencies List: Emotional Intelligence has proven to be the right kind of intelligence to have if you want to move onward and upward faster. Get your free list today.

 

Show Transcript:

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

171: Michael Gale: The ship we were part of building is no longer relevant

 

Intro:  Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

Need a powerful and entertaining way to ignite your next conference retreat or team-building session? My keynotes don’t include magic but they do have the power to help your attendees take a leap forward by putting emotional intelligence into their employee engagement, customer engagement and customer centric leadership practices. So, bring the infotainment creativity the Fast Leader show to your next event and I’ll help your attendees get over the hump now. Go to beyondmorale.com/speaking to learn more. 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Fast Leader legion today I’m excited because I have somebody on the show today who besides being very quick-witted and funny has some great deep knowledge in regards to something that is so vitally important to a lot of organizations today, and that is digital transformation. Michael Gale was born in Exeter, England. His father was an academic so the family moved around as his father gained seniority. Michael has lived in Swansea, Cardiff, Southampton, and moved to the US in 1993. His parents were happily married for 44 years until his father’s death 11 years ago. Michael has one sister who is currently a professor at the University of Manchester. His parents were married extremely young and did nothing but love their children, stretch them and rejoice in their journeys. Michael feels incredibly lucky, his sister is a certified genius and though Michael struggled his parents never treated their children differently. 

 

Michael Gale:   From a very early age, Michael’s family would have deep debates at supper at 6 p.m. every night. Michael’s mother is a brilliant ceramicist and his sister is an extensively published world expert on women in theatre. Michael emigrated to the U.S. in 1993 and was pledged to be a part of an incredible company led by Peters and Ann, one of Austin’s founding 1990s entrepreneurs. Michael then went to a company called Micron to lead their web 1.0 revolution. From there he went off on his own to build two companies which were sold to monitor group and Forrester. Michael’s last company was sold to a billion dollar consulting firm. He is currently partner at Digital Ink which coaches and trains organizations to thrive in their digital transformations and he’s co-author of the Digital Helix which shows what drives performance for digitally transforming organizations as well as key components and mindset skills needed to lead this digital first world. Michael is in Seattle with his life partner and best friend Laura. They’ve been married 22 years and have three dogs they adore. Michael Gale, are you ready to help us get over the hump?

 

Michael Gale:   Absolutely. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I’m glad you’re here. Now I’ve given my legion a little bit about you, but can you tell us what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better?

 

It’s still digital transformation. It’s 1.7 trillion initiative it’s the size of the Italian economy, size of the10th biggest economy in the world. It’s going to touch everything we do is consumers, citizens and as businesses for the foreseeable future it allows us to whiteboard what’s possible and really see no limitations other than the size of the whiteboard you’re writing on. So I think if you can’t be enthused by that I think life itself probably isn’t very interesting.

 

Jim Rembach:   That’s an interesting point. Okay, so when you start talking about that magnitude from an economic perspective are we really talking about touching every single vertical in industry both public and in private sector?

 

Michael Gale:   Yeah. I think every moment of our lives is going to be radically touched by—I’ll give you sort of a slightly bizarre 24 by 7 example. Imagine it’s midnight you’re in bed it’s very likely you’re going to be tracking your heart rate potentially even your sleep patterns and sending that to a company that will then either electronically adjust your bed or will load those theoretically into medical files that are used to them handle sleep issues or type II diabetes issue. At the same time many of us have nest devices in our house they’ll be tracking where your heats being delivered where it’s leaking and how much is costing you and even potentially going onto the grid and finding a lower economic cost for that electricity at 12 o’clock at night. Well, emails will be passing around and that marketing program you set it up four o’clock in the evening will be fully tested and be delivering results by nine o’clock in the morning that could affecting your supply chain could be affecting your media and marketing partners could be effective in what you set your opening address to your team at 9:00 in the morning and more importantly the way you interact with a government and you move town maybe that day to get a new driving license could all be done online. So, I think absolutely everything we touch, feel, experienced, don’t even understand it’s there is going to be digital transform if not it’s currently being transformed in their real-time.

 

Jim Rembach:   In addition, in the book you had talked about a digital transformation perspective and you had mentioned something about in the next 12 months leaders estimate that they will spend an average 19.9 hours per person per week in digital transformation issues. But then over the next three years you say that number’s going to climb to 22 hours per person.

 

Michael Gale:   That’s two bits day a week that’s literally—it’s a Monday or Friday or Tuesday, Wednesday or whatever it is, you’re going to spend that much time thinking about this issue. That’s not just I say nest these were executives we actually interview for the research, thousands of them we talked and said, look what you’re spending your time on and how you categorize it and I think this is the most transformative process because for this are the first time ever we’ve built technology in this field of dreams concept if you build it they will come well now we reverse engineered it you’ve got a dream what you want and the technology can give you access to those possibilities. And that’s not a very difficult pitch for a company to make to a CEO or the VP or department manager but they have to actually teach them how to do it and that’s where the failure rate occurs that’s why so many companies get this wrong.

 

Jim Rembach:   When you start talking—for me in listening to you I started thinking of so many things that are associated with this whole digital transformation, of course all the culture components, I started thinking about the issues with creative thinking and the problems that we have with creative thinking and creative thinking is a foundational component necessary for innovation to happen, I start thinking about how organizations typically go about their business and often squash the creative thinker. So, when I start thinking that—you name in here seven challenges to doing digital right I sort of goodness I probably added five more just right there.

That’s okay. What we know from the research, when we talk to sort of 30 digital transformation masters in commercial and when we do the primary research of huge engine event with the Economist Intelligence Unit originally, is that creativity generally should overcome any problem I think that’s true in life, politics, everything. The challenge really is that lots of other things that organizations squash before they can even squash creativity. I think one of the issues is over-promising, I think that that chasm can be a terrible disaster. 

 

Michael Gale:   I think secondly there is an intent to try and buy an answer when you need to really fertilize and breed your own system for doing it. So, creativity is a good place to go to if you can solve those major seven challenges if you can solve those seven challenges you could have the best creative thinking in the world but it will never get out of the whiteboard it’ll never get out of the plan it will never get out of the PowerPoint. We found that really only 16 % of organizations we’re really getting this sort of digital DNA right and the other 84% that don’t, don’t not want to do it they just don’t know how to do it correctly. They don’t put the elements the genetic components in place that give them a high chance of success.

 

Jim Rembach:   Needless to say the genetic components is where you start getting into the helix aspect of it. In the book don’t even introduce the helix until chapter 7, you’re already halfway or more through the book before you start revealing it because there is all this ground and foundational work that you’re talking about. One of the things when you start talking about the seven challenges component, initially when I looked at it I was like, ugh, I lost my breath for a second, but then I got what you were coming from and part of it like a number seven of your challenges you say that digital is not just customer focused, so I think it’s important to elaborate on that a little bit.

 

Michael Gale:   I’ll give you a fantastic example. If you look at customer service in an organization there are thousands, millions maybe hundreds of millions of interactions organizations have with customers—what went right, what went wrong, what they could do better to have a reaction—well, the real value of that information is not actually just in the customer element but how your employees function, how they interact, how they can sense and feel changes how it affects economics of the organization, how it affects supply chain, how it affects employees skills management. If you really look at it closely digital has always been on the edge, it’s always been customer focused we all did web on their websites but the intrinsic value of digital is how it makes the systems work internally better, to be responsive to employees, to partners, stockholders, and customers it shouldn’t just be limited to just customer interaction on a website the power of that information to change different and to make different decisions is remarkable. Surpass, is a great example of that in terms of the shoe industry but GE should be doing a much better job of the way they’re doing it now with employees and partners than they do. So, just looking at the edge customers ignores the truth of the corm where it could be valuable.

 

Jim Rembach:   When I start thinking about the enormity of this issue and the rapid pace and the economic requirement, the competitive requirement, so many different elements a talent requirement   top talent they don’t want to work for the 84% they want to work for the 16% right? 

 

Michael Gale:   You are so true. I think particularly in the current job market where we’re lower on that Phillips curve unemployment mark than maybe the last three decades I think we’ve seen a shift where employees want to start to become a workers want to become their own CEO, manage their own careers that pressure of the light side and the dark side are more transparent than ever before. Organizations look at Indeed they look at Glassdoor, maybe the Forbes or Fortune list of top companies and that’s an increasing variable in selection of organization. I go there and become a better version of myself because there is going to be another job I want to be able to leave somewhere having accumulated skills, equity for the organization and knowledge I can use to advance my own career my own income level. So, I think it is very concerning if you’re not being part of that 16% it will continue to drag yourself down with millennials which in a few years’ time will be 50% plus of the workforce. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Yeah, that’s a very short timeline. And even going past that ten years beyond they become like 90% of the workforce it’s like a huge drop-off.

 

Michael Gale:   Yeah, and frankly if you can’t succeed and digitally transform within two three five years you may not be around in ten years. We asked the CEOs two three years ago basically what they thought the biggest threats to them? Fifty five percent said we are more concerned about startups in our segment as really critical threats than ever before. Tiny little fireflies making elephants jump up and down. So, if they don’t solve those challenges in the next two three or four years they may not be employing anybody in five to ten years’ time. 

 

Jim Rembach:   That’s a good point. Typically speaking, when you start talking about large organizations that have been around for a long time that whole transformation process takes significantly longer than it would otherwise you have just so much legacy baggage and weight that prevents you from doing the pivots that are necessary. If I’m in that position what are one or two things that an organization can do in order to start a spark?

 

Michael Gale:   I think there’s two actually. One is, yes we didn’t get to the digital helix of chapter seven because I think people try and digitally wrap themselves and assume that’s transformative. Having a website or even having an ability to communicate with customers online that’s not digitally transforming yourself. So, the first thing is be aware of what your challenges and drivers are invest at least an hour, read the first eighty pages of the book it might surprise you. 

 

The second issue is really think big. Don’t think small don’t think incremental don’t think wrapping generally think how you can radically disrupt your own norms your own traditions because tradition is just the illusion of permanence that’s not a truth it’s just a reality of the world it’s a great piece—an English newspaper today talked about the volume of purchasing that they predict will be done with cash currency by 2026. They argue that less than one in four transactions, one in five rather, will be done in cash. In fact, theoretically by 2036 maybe less than 1% of transactions are done in cash. So in a history of two and a half thousand years of cash we’re arguing in less than 1.5 percent at that time the idea of cash could disappear. So, I think you should not limit your imagination to history you should genuinely think very big about what you could disrupt internally that has a natural upside to it of great magnitude don’t think small think big but take small steps on how to get there. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I think that’s great a point. So many of the things that we project are taking much longer in fact are not. Like what you just referred to for a time I work for deluxe financial services and a lot of people here in the states known them as the cheque printing company, deluxe of cheques. They were talking about their projections how paper payments via cheque we’re going to go away within a period of time. And I was like, no, that’s going to take a generational shift, it’s not going to happen that fast. I’ll be darned if it didn’t. The shift was just so rapid it was amazing. Okay, I’ve got to create and bolster up my DNA and so talking about the helix, if you could step us through the digital helix real quickly, I think that’d be great. 

 

Michael Gale:   It’s really based on primary research huge amount of it about a thousand case studies we work through and really 30-35 interviews that probably took about 300 hours to do we just follow people and when we looked to the research when we look to their interviews we found sort of seven common interconnected components. The 16 % got it right so far empirically and the 30+ people we interviewed pretty much got it right the seven components dominate everywhere. So, component number one, executives in these organizations were digital explorers. They didn’t just support digital initiatives they physically roll their sleeves up and became active sort of advocates for the change process not just strategically but on a day-to-day basis. They said, hey I’m going to own project A, B and C I’m going to make it happen. They roll their sleeves up the only mandate after they’ve done and they live these principles in however they interact how they measure how they work really big deal. If you look at Larry Scott, Pat    or even executives in some government departments they don’t just believe in this they really live it they live it. They live it daily and they function that way. 

 

The second component—remember all these are three dimensionally connected like a helix it was this idea of information being about listening in new ways. Traditionally we have this sort of predefined ways, we listen socially, we interact socially, what we found with information is it’s almost like having a set of bridges floating across a range of rivers. Some information becomes really valuable and then it loses its value. Some streams of information places you could get it become valuable and then lose that value then come back again. So, you’re looking at this constant ebb and flow of information. These organizations don’t just create a dashboard and live by it for the next two years they may create and change dashboards every few weeks. 

USAA was a great example of insurance company in San Antonio of this more fluid view about what relevant information you need and what streams or sources you got it from. It is why these companies are very good at paying attention to trends and reacting fast enough. 

 

The third thing that was completely common was that all these organizations either saw their citizens or customers as having sort of experiential portfolios it’s not just one moment that matters. For example, imagine you’re buying a holiday with your partner and you go online and see some beautiful pictures of a beach in Greece. You just want to check those out so you then go on to Facebook and type in the name of that beach and you see an awful picture of a hotel that’s half built. You’re picking up experiences from a range of environments because that’s the way customers can do things now and you’ve got a respect as a brand thus the experiential portfolios are really vital. It’s not just a stuff you can control it’s a stuff way outside your control because you can really find it for the first time ever. 

 

The third thing we found is that all the most successful organizations planned marketing and communications as one flow. They sat in the room and they plotted all the actions and words in one plan not a marketing plan and a coms plan it was the marketing and communications plan so it was a constant connected process around one idea one message one set of words one set of actions these are really empirically common. By the time we actually measured about 170 variables these types of activities were economically most connected with success to anything else. And the last three are pretty straightforward, we don’t believe in sales journeys anymore because nobody goes on a journey it is so fast how could you measure it it’s like a sprint we see things disconnected moments not as journeys. All this journey mapping we don’t believe is valuable anymore because it tries to simplify too complicated a process. Pick the moments where your brand can win tiny moments they may be and lock in on it. 

 

The last two were much more esoteric to some but were easily explained. Firstly, everybody is responsible to each other. So if you have information I need or I have information you need or somebody else has insights we both need everybody has to share this stuff it’s fundamentally more collaborative culture in a rugby team scrums getting together quickly what’s really driving success in places the silos got broken down very quickly. Finally—and I come from a strategy background so this probably hurt my soul more than anything else—is that strategy is about be in the moment and one step ahead. Never go past the horizon because you don’t know what the horizon looks like. Your strategy should be how do we be successful and be nimble? And it’s the combination of agility and success this constant preparedness to break down where we’ve been historically as part of how these organizations are really successful. And these seven common components were present in all these organizations that were in the 16. There were 32% of organizations that had some of these but because they didn’t have all of them they couldn’t get economic return.  

 

Jim Rembach:   Gosh! There’s so many things that you were going through that I started thinking about I know that for a lot of folks who’ve actually been on the show and who I’m actually engaged with the whole journey mapping thing and the statement that you had said I know will actually drop some people to the floor—

 

Michael Gale:   Yeah. 

 

Jim Rembach:   It’s just one of those things that is just so hot and common so many people are doing it and chasing it and want to do it but you’re saying, whoa, kind of like the whole strategy thing, you’re already a little bit too late.

 

Michael Gale:   We owned a number of trademarks on journey mapping 10, 14 years ago when we built the methodology so I’m having to admit the ship we were part of building is no longer relevant. You can’t fit a journey map into a world of moments and customers a moment orientated you’ve got to connect moments together. There is no linear pathway it’s not like you’ve put a little ball in a tube and it drops to the bottom it’s more like a pachinko machine where there are thousands of balls running around you’ve got to decide which ones you pick up on. And it infers a level of control that brands no longer have in the communication or selling process. Customers are in complete control of what they want when they want and how they want it you have to work out at which phase of those pieces you can maybe intersect yourself. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, so another thing that I was thinking about as you said that is that if I’m talking about all these moments coming together then I start thinking that it’s going to be more important for organizations to understand their analytics the insight capturing the data and being able to do the interpretation so that they can spot those particular moments.

 

Michael Gale:   Well, yeah, you can collect as much as you want and I think whereas before we were in a shortage phase of data so capturing was critical the act of filtering, interpreting, and actually inducing action now becomes really much more critical for analysts than ever before. You’ve got to have a framework, you’ve got to be flexible in the way you think about you’ve got to recognize the world you’re trying to service is very different than the world you used to service. Yes, capture is important but probably frame working and then socializing are probably two of the more important skills that generally data analysts struggle with.

 

Jim Rembach:   Well exactly. Even when I’ve seen people who’ve been in charge of data analytics groups and bi groups that is not forte it is to collect data and report on data not do the insight and interpretation and therefore the nuance and the finesse aspects of data.

 

Michael Gale:   Oh, I think that’s where the big consulting firms had. The reality is the most data can be now reported automatically and frankly self-serve better. That’s why we go to Amazon because we can self-serve of an infrastructure anything we want whenever we want it how we want it. Yeah, I find my data analyst right now and I spent my whole life training skills for accumulation I’ve really got to spend my life training myself on three skills which is interpretation, frame working, and actually socializing those changes to my colleagues because if I can’t do that it will be very difficult for me to have a successful career two, three, five, maybe ten years from now. Machines will do the analysis far better than humans will. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I also trying to interpret and read through and can make connections and draw conclusions to what you’re saying is that for the longest time I have been saying how from—okay, if you’re going to do your journey mapping and that’s something that you need to do, you need to overlay the empathy components and do some empathy mapping and understand your customer at a much deeper human level because of all the things that you’re talking about that they’re having moments that they’re having different interactions than you used to in the past and humans are not textbook once I put it in ink guess what? They’ve changed, right? So I have to constantly go through and editing and iteration process. Journey maps are meant to be a little bit more static as well as looking in the past it’s more of a nostalgic component. 

 

Michael Gale:   And I can see that’s helpful and I think the reality was when we live in a synthesized world of mostly binary and some digital and then maybe you could get away with but I think journey mapping was like putting a steamship engine into a sailing boat. At some point the basic architecture of the vehicle isn’t robust enough to carry the load you want it to carry and moments are the best thing to do emotional moments, technical moments, acquisition, aspirational moments, you really should map those moments and think of this like a pachinko machine. How many balls can you capture roughly together at roughly the right time? Because that’s a logical aspiration versus this desperate need to control things with a journey when that control is no longer even possibly in your hands.

 

Jim Rembach:   That’s a great point. Another one I would like to add to that is the fear abatement moments. The fear reduction in avoidance moments because it’s like—I was having this discussion with some of the other day where they kept talking about the aspirational side of dealing with customers and I’m like, okay, we all have been on a swing and so if you think about a swing in order for us to have momentum we have to have the back, the back part of the swing, and what do we do in the back? We kick in order to move forward. And so you have to think about when you’re dealing with customers is that their motivations come like a swing and it’s the times when they kick where we have opportunity. 

 

Michael Gale:   Absolutely correct energy statement.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, so…man, gosh, with all this—and I had mentioned before when I got the book and I started reading through it, I just got excited and got a lot of energy reading about this empirical evidence, because I also love empirical evidence, and how you’ve basically built this framework for people to actually execute this digital transformation but it’s loaded with emotion. One of the things that we look for on the show are quotes to help us focus and point ourselves in the right direction and maybe get rid of some of that fear component. Is there a quote or two that you like that you can share?

 

Michael Gale:   Yes. I think we were very careful to think about quotes at the beginning of each chapter and I think there are two in particular to me, one is tradition is the illusion of permanence—which is absolutely the best compass you should always use. Fundamentally, I think the world changes so radically that it’s impossible to assume it’s the same. I think the second one that I really like is Albert Einstein’s quote we use in Chapter six, small steps equal giant leaps. And the quotes basically this, “The world as we have created it is a process of our thinking it cannot be changed without changing our thinking”—and that to me illustrates the perceptual or mindset barrier that prevents many well-intentioned organizations from really transforming themselves and they end up just transitioning to a partly digital framework. This world is so different you have to change the way you think about it was nice journeys or moments whether we think about actually illustrate the skills and attitudes you want to have not mandating it this is about a new way of thinking. The organizations we spoke with USAA, Hallmark, very traditional US company/organizations recognize this need to transplant mandate with thinking an action that was fundamentally different by nature. That is a tough thing to deal with because we’re ground down every day by the need to just do a little bit better. This is about being radically different taking giant leaps through these small steps. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I appreciate the work that you’re doing with this and look forward to your next edition as you continue this study work and see if you can help that next 16% get to their transformation faster.

 

Michael Gale:   Well I hope. I think the US economy and others will really be open to threat from startups everywhere and at the end of the day big companies employ a lot of people globally and some of those jobs are going to I think be automated out or AI in a way that may not necessarily be the logical way to do it.

 

Jim Rembach:   That’s very true. So, when you look at all of the things that you have going down and I can imagine because of the book and all the work that you’ve done before and the need for all of this that you have, a lot of things that are sitting in front of you as far as goals are concerned but you can’t do everything so if you had one goal, what would it be?

 

Michael Gale:   I think one goal to me was if you look at that Fortune 100 or 500 in three five years’ time every single CEO they said, we’re as digitally transformed as we genuinely can be at this point. We’ve made mistakes we’ve had failures but we feel that we are 500% better equipped to handle the future. I believe that would be really successful if you’ve helped a number of those organizations get to that level. Because it is as much about the psychology of preparedness for a future yet to be defined as it is about the process for how to get to that point. 

 

Jim Rembach:   And the Fast Leader legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor.

 

The number one thing that contributes to customer loyalty is emotion. So move onward and upward faster by gaining significantly deeper insight and understanding of your customer journey and personas with emotional intelligence. With your empathy mapping workshop you’ll learn how to evoke and influence the right customer emotions that generate improve customer loyalty and reduce your cost to operate. Get over your emotional hump now by going to empathymapping.com to learn more. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Alright, here we go Fast Leader legion it’s time for the Hump Day Hoedown. Okay, Michael, the Hump day hoedown is the part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Michael Gale, are you ready to hoedown? 

 

Michael Gale:   Yes, now I’m nervous but go ahead. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today? 

 

Michael Gale:   Inability to let go. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What is the best leadership advice you have ever received? 

 

Michael Gale:   Make people the best versions of themselves and organizations will thrive

 

Jim Rembach:   What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

Michael Gale:   I tend to work harder and faster and deeper than most people. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

 

Michael Gale:   Innate sense of curiosity. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What would be one book that you’d recommend to our listeners and it can be from any genre and of course we’ll put a link to, Digital Helix, on your show notes page as well. 

 

Michael Gale:   Pete Carroll’s book, Win Forever, because it really does talk about what it takes to make cultures work and it was written nearly ten years ago.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Fast Leader legion you could find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to www.fastleader.net/michaelgale. Okay, Michael, this is my last Hump Day Hoedown question: Imagine you were given the opportunity go back to the age of 25. And you’ve been given the opportunity to take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you but you can’t take everything back you can only choose one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why? 

Michael Gale:   Be infinitely more aggressive and accept that really good things will happen. I think the world is much bigger now than I realized it was then and I should have been more infinitely optimistic then as I am now.

 

Jim Rembach:   Michael, it was an honor to spend time with you today, can you please share with the Fast Leader Legion how they can connect with you?

 

Michael Gale:   Yeah, drop me an email, michael@inc.digital and we’ll be able to give out some digital copies of the book for free more than happy to do that to help people. Connect with us on LinkedIn and other than that this is incredible fun today, thank you.

 

Jim Rembach:   Thank you, Michael Gale for sharing your knowledge and wisdom and the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show, special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the www.fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster. 

 

END OF AUDIO 

 

[/expand]

 

Dean Lindsay Big Phat Goals

162: Dean Lindsay: I do now own my entire bio

Dean Lindsay Show Notes Page

Dean Lindsay had a client that hired him for sales training. Everything went great and participant feedback was high. But once the client learned that Dean had some minor roles as a professional actor, he terminated the remaining sessions. This caused Dean to make some changes that had some unintended consequences.

Dean was born in Irving Texas and raised in Denison Texas, a small town on the Red River. His parents divorced in his early teens and he has one younger brother named Lance.

Dean was active in many, many things in high school including student government where he was student council president, Theater and Texas High School Football. Dean is a proud member of the, Undefeated 1984 Texas 4A State Championship, the Denison Fighting Yellow Jackets. This experience of winning teamwork has lead Dean to a life-long study of what traits make a winner in sport, business and life.

Dean’s early career was as an actor and acting coach. He played one of the ‘Bad Guys’ in TWISTER and was LeAnn Rimes On-Set Acting Coach for both a Hallmark Movie of the Week and on the soap opera Days of Our Lives. It was acting coaching that encouraged Dean to look more into how to coach and inspire professionals in other fields to communicate from a place of confidence and positive strength.

Dean is the Chief Marketing Officer for Synclab Media and Host of C-Suite Network TV‘s The DEAN’s List. He’s hailed as a ‘Outstanding Thought Leader on Building Priceless Business Relationships’ by Sales and Marketing Executives International as well as an ‘Outstanding Speaker’ by the International Association of Speakers Bureaus.

His new book, How to Achieve Big PHAT Goals outlines a goal crafting process for any type of goal. Free from complicated processes, it’s more of a call to action, along with the tools of how to get it done like a pro.

Dean’s legacy is one of a thinker-through. He has focused on being open and creatively helpful which shows in his books, his music and even his children.

Dean, his wife Lena of over 25 years and their two strong and wonderfully bright daughters Sophia and Ella live in Plano Texas.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @deanlindsay to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow Click to Tweet 

“Goal achievement isn’t the most challenging part, it’s goal commitment.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“It’s conviction that leads to commitment that leads to the action.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“You’re not going to measure something that you’re not committed to achieving.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“You don’t forget the goal, you forget why the goal.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet

“If we’re going to be influenced and persuaded by something, why not influence and persuade ourselves.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“A plan is not going to get you somewhere you’re not committed to going.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“Most of the time we have to change the plan a hundred times anyway, just move.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“Why are we not proactive? It’s because we’re not committed.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“Whatever we continually say to ourselves, our brains are going to encourage steps to make that true.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“An organization is only as strong as its individuals’ personal goals and their belief that they can move closer to their personal goals by reaching the team goals.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

“If we develop the power of conviction, then all of the other options of things we could do with our time are not sacrifices.” -Dean Lindsay Click to Tweet 

Hump to Get Over

Dean Lindsay had a client that hired him for sales training. Everything went great and participant feedback was high. But once the client learned that Dean had some minor roles as a professional actor, he terminated the remaining sessions. This caused Dean to make some changes that had some unintended consequences.

Advice for others

Learn better nutrition and make better eating decisions.

Holding him back from being an even better leader

Patience

Best Leadership Advice

Breathe

Secret to Success

Breathing. Deep long slow breaths in and out.

Best tools that helps in Business or Life

Empathetic humor. I try to be creatively helpful.

Recommended Reading

How to Achieve Big PHAT Goals

Man’s Search for Meaning, Gift Edition

Contacting Dean Lindsay

Website: www.deanlindsay.com

email: dean [at] deanlindsay.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/deanlindsay

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanlindsay/

Resources and Show Mentions

An Even Better Place to Work

Empathy Mapping

54 Emotional Intelligence (EQ) Competencies List: Emotional Intelligence has proven to be the right kind of intelligence to have if you want to move onward and upward faster. Get your free list today.

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

162: Dean Lindsay: I do now own my entire bio

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader Podcast, where we uncover the leadership like hat that help you to experience, break out performance faster and rocket to success. And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

Need a powerful and entertaining way to ignite your next conference retreat or team-building session? My keynotes don’t include magic but they do have the power to help your attendees take a leap forward by putting emotional intelligence into their employee engagement, customer engagement and customer centric leadership practices. So, bring the infotainment creativity the Fast Leader show to your next event and I’ll help your attendees get over the hump now. Go to beyondmorale.com/speaking to learn more. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay Fast Leader legion today I’m excited because we’re going to get somebody who could probably help us with our customer-centric and digital transformations in our organization. Dean Lindsay was born in Irving, Texas and raised in Denison, Texas, a small town on the Red River. His parents divorced in her early age when he was in his teens and he also has one younger brother Lance. Dean was active in many, many things in high school including student government where he was student council president, theatre and Texas high school football. Dean is a proud member of the undefeated 1984 Texas 4A State Champion with Denison fighting Yellow Jackets. This experience of winning team work has led Dean to a lifelong study of what traits make a winner in sports, business and life. Dean’s early career was as actor and acting coach. He played one of the bad guys in Twister and was LeAnn Rimes On-Set Acting Coach for both a Hallmark Movie of the Week and on the soap opera Days of Our Lives. It was acting coaching that encouraged Dean to look more into how to coach and inspire professionals in other fields to communicate from a place of confidence and positive strength. 

Dean is the Chief Marketing Officer for Synclab Media and Host of C-Suite Network TV‘s The DEAN’s List. He’s hailed as an ‘Outstanding Thought Leader on Building Priceless Business Relationships’ by Sales and Marketing Executives International as well as an ‘Outstanding Speaker’ by the International Association of Speakers Bureaus.

His new book, How to Achieve Big PHAT Goals outlines a goal creating, crafting process for any type of goal. Free from complicated processes, it’s more of a call to action, along with the tools of how to get it done like a pro. Dean’s legacy is one of a thinker-through. He has focused on being open and creatively helpful which shows in his books, his music and even his children. Dean, and his wife Lena of over 25 years and their two strong and wonderfully bright daughters Sophia and Ella live in Plano. Texas. Dean Lindsey are you ready to help us get over the hump? 

Dean Lindsay:    Absolutely. Thanks for having me on the show. 

Jim Rembach:   I’m glad you’re here. I’ve give our listeners a little bit about you but can you tells us your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better?

Dean Lindsay:    Current passion? Wow! The current passion is that music hardly enough we’re really doing that. I’ve got a three song EP on Spotify, beyond that people would have checked out. I’m going to have a CD this year—that’s one big passion. And then on the business front, the new book, ‘How to Achieve Big PHat Goals’ and have it continue the role, it has been a fun ride.  

Jim Rembach:   I have the opportunity to look through the book and when I first got it I was at a pause because when I compared it to the other books that are on my shelf I was like, ummm this is interesting enough itself. And when I started going through the book, I really became intrigue and engaged by it. There’s a couple of things that really stood out, and I’m sure you’re used to talking about them but when you think about goals, a lot of people heard about smart goals specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound, some people have added the ER to it and talked about evaluate and reviewed, but what’s so different about PHAT goals? 

Dean Lindsay:    Well, for one thing I dig smart goals and smarter goals even sounds cooler than that I’m not even against that at all.  I guess the one thing that I think people haven’t given enough respect to is—smart goals are even a plan on how to achieve goals. Goal achievement isn’t the most challenging part of it is it’s a goal, a commitment staying committed to a goal. That’s really what this book is, it’s a goal effect I call it the goal conviction book. Because it’s conviction that leads to commitment that leads to the action then you can have a smarter goals. That’s actually cool but you’re not going to measure something that you’re not committed to achieving and commitment has to come first because that goal is a great companion to a big goal or smart goal or any other system that you met, goal conviction can help you stay smart, stay on it. 

Jim Rembach:   When we listen to you talk it totally makes sense when you start putting other things together meaning that, hey, when January comes around all the gym membership just go wild and in February they’re napping years and so the benefit of the gym is that they collect  11 months of this—they never use. 

Dean Lindsay:    Speaking where the gym was, someone might forget where the gym was, they know where the gym is they didn’t forget that they didn’t forget they want to be skinny. You don’t forget the goal you forget why the goal. You remember the goal that’s the reason I’m not so excited about setting goal or putting them around. You need to remind yourself of why? That’s what big PHAT is all about, that’s P-H-A-T –Pretty Hot and Tempting—that’s what the book is about. It’s about how to make your goals the prettiest, hottest and most tempting of all the options. That’s one of the big challenges and problem we have in United States of America, we have too many good options you can’t really do one thing we have too many other choices we can rationalize and say, hey, it’s a good use of time too.  You know Netflix, been watching something, there’s tons of good things to do with our time you can’t do and have it all. We’re going to be influenced and persuaded by something why not influenced and persuaded ourselves. 

Jim Rembach:   That’s a great point. When you look at what executives are struggling with these days and in another episode said something about it’s not mission and vision anymore it’s about movement and that execution is a big problem.

Dean Lindsay:    That’s good, I like that, movement that’s exactly right. I’m all for plans but plans are not going to get somewhere you’re not committed to going. And if you have enough commitment you don’t necessarily have to have—you guys keep going it’s movement back to it. Most times we check the change of plan a hundred times anyway. Just move go, let’s see check it out. But you’re not going to do that without conviction and commitment and nobody will tell you that. Stephen Covey’s The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, number one is be proactive. This had been around, it’s not like it’s a new material, that’s Covey’s number one, be proactive. Why are we proactive? Because we’re not committed, that’s my point.

Jim Rembach:   And it is. So the biggest problem that executives talk about is the execution and talking about all these goals that many organizations set. Less than one percent of them are getting moved to pond so which other ones are actually getting the movement it’s probably the ones that are fat. 

Dean Lindsay:    Yes, it’s exactly right. Then there’s no base on the perceived consequences we get on—we go deeper on the book in that regard about how to necessarily make your goals PHAT which is really in my vernacular that everybody as progress to do those actions. Are they even for you that you got to view this progress and that change? I’ll dig in to that in the book, we have the six P’s sof progress and the way we from a psychological standpoint decide what we’re going to do that’s really what’s this book could have been called—the psychology of how to make decisions—but I don’t think that’s cool of a title it’s more of a textbook.

Jim Rembach:   That’s very true and this is definitely not a textbook. Your six P’s of progress—you talk about peace of mind, pleasure, profit, prestige, pain avoidance and power. But you have six rules of crafting big PHAT goals, to me I think are really powerful.

Dean Lindsay:    Yeah, thanks. The first one, I don’t know if we can go to all of them but I will share that there’s—the one that I’m trying to remember I can pretty much guess what I would say the rule is everybody had said that your goals had to be written down. And I totally agree you need to have them written down. Unfortunately, it’s how we write them down, we’re writing them down in a useful way. I’m talking about crafting a goal both crafting your goal in a verb sense but also in a noun sense did it actually writing it in such a way that it propels you towards that achievement. Our brain are trippy, our brains are complicated and they say we use between 7 and 12 percent of our brains and it’s cool. Our brain wants one thing and that is to be right. Our brains wants to be right. So whatever we continually, continually say to ourselves our brains are going to encourage us to take steps to make that true. So we need to craft a goal as if it is a copy of, I don’t put the word will do it in a claiming of what it knew reality is don’t use the word not don’t go negative don’t remind yourself a past mistakes stuff like that. It’s how we craft so that it becomes a, I don’t want to say an affirmation because that term get kind of plop around but it is self-taught, it’s how we communicate to ourselves internally. Everybody participates in self-taught everybody listening, do you participate in self-taught. Some people would say, yes and some people would say, do I or don’t I? Because we all participate in self-taught. 

Jim Rembach:   When we start talking about this I started thinking about Napoleon Hill and** really kind of brought a lot of this to the forefront of our mind in regards to visualizing which is one of the thing that you had in rule number one. 

Dean Lindsay:    Absolutely. 

Jim Rembach:   Write them but also visualize them.

Dean Lindsay:    Right, right. When I say visualize I almost mean like feel them, feel the success, feel the progress, feel the 6 P’s that you will feel when you accomplish it. When I say visualize it really means emotionally visualize not just kind of seeing it.

Jim Rembach:   And going back to the whole progress thing, if I’m thinking about an organization and where a lot of people I think make the mistake is, okay, I’m a leader and I want to vision something and I want people to get on board. The part that they really do fail in is part of your rule number two which is the whole progress piece. 

Dean Lindsay:    Yeah. Everybody’s there for themselves and that’s totally cool that’s not bad I think that’s what a paycheck is that’s what I mean by that they’re there for themselves they’re there for their career development. But what they believe is—there’s a lot of other reasons ** be there they get personal satisfaction of doing a good job or that they’re doing their career, something they’re passionate about, we go back to the 60s they’re there to try to get the 60s. What’s important as a leader is to get to know our people so well enough to be able to help them see the organization’s goals help them get closer to their personal goals. An organization is only as strong as it’s individual’s personal goals and that individuals belief that they can move closer to their personal goals by reaching team goal.

Jim Rembach:   So now you have a lot of people that are on your team. When you start talking about you and your organization how do you guys go about creating that personal connection with that person who that are kind of distance from you?

Dean Lindsay:    You got to be available, you got to be open, you got to listen, you got to be interested in people’s lives, I don’t say they’ve got a good memory, you got to take notes and study up on your team and why are they there. Sales manager should love it when a sales rep wants to buy a boat. If I was that person’s sales manager I’ll be bringing him magazines or books, this is the book we’re going to get. Hey, you sell a car I’ll take you today I’ll go get my car and we’ll go over to look at some book, I spend an hour looking at books. Get them revved up get them connected to why it’s been (11:56 inaudible) remind people about sales quota that is not a motivator. Tell them what they’re going to do with the money that—the sales quota equals some number, it equals some number in the sense of the sales they’re some kind of commission remind them the money that you were trying to help them make—this organization would like to help you make a $100, 000 a quarter, that’s what our goal is we’re trying to help you make a $100, 000 and here’s how we’re going to help you do it. 

Jim Rembach:   So it sounds like to me—as you’re talking I started thinking that went right back to the Six P’s, is that me as a leader I have to be able to find out because all of these six p’s are going to have the same equal strength and magnitude. 

Dean Lindsay:    Exactly, well said, sir, it’s a unique blend that changes minute by minute within ourselves or at least you know—I am not hungry now I’m hungry, I didn’t have anything now I have a headache, I wasn’t trying to avoid pain now I have to try to avoid pain, everything’s in play. 

Jim Rembach:    Okay, so for me when I start thinking about my career and where I am now, and I’ll be 50 in a couple of weeks, is that—

Dean Lindsay:    Me too, what’s your birthday?

Jim Rembach:   February 2, 1968

Dean Lindsay:    Hey, man you were born two days before me. 

Jim Rembach:   I feel older. 

Dean Lindsay:    Yeah, your two days you’re two days older

Jim Rembach:   I started thinking about these six Ps of peace of mind, pleasure, profit, prestige, pain, avoidance, power and that at different stages within my life, no kids, single, no kids it’s kind of waxed and waned and all these things and it’s kind of like, what’s important to me right now and as a leader I’m reflecting back on having to supervise a couple of hundred people and while there was a couple tears within us, just trying to think about that, when were we the most effective is when we really boil it down, did a good job of identifying these things in our people.

Dean Lindsay:    Yeah, yeah and that’s real teamwork. It’s interesting they talk about together everyone achieves more and I’ve heard that forever and ever but most time I’ve ever heard of people are always talking about the first three letters they’re together focus on them together or that everyone together again, achieve we want to achieve. But the real point there is more and everybody’s more as unique everybody’s more as unique. And so that’s what you have to help them see that by being on a team they’re going to get closer to their more. Hey, I just made that up. 

Jim Rembach:   You’re the first here on the Fast Leader show. 

Dean Lindsay:    Exactly. All right

Jim Rembach:   I know going through the book and hearing about your background everything that you’re driven by a lot of passionate things and one of the things that drives us on the Fast Leader show are quotes. Is there a quote or two that can share that you like? 

Dean Lindsay:    One that I put in the book that really started to resonate with me really saw leaving and now and me discussing the book and doing workshops on the book and I probably could have dug a little bit more into it in the book is a quote about Pat Benatar. Pat Benatar says. With the power of conviction there is no sacrifice. With the power of conviction there is no sacrifice. And what that basically means to me, I really love it, if we can develop the power of conviction, we develop we work on developing strong conviction then all the other options of things we could do with our time or sacrifices we’re not sacrificing for what we know to be the greater activity. Those are just other good choices that now we aren’t focusing on because we know we’re on for something even better with the power of conviction. Where do you get the power of conviction? Again it’s a developing thing, I believe that How to Achieve Big PHAT Goals book is and I guess start process that we’re talking about today is really trying to think and think and think through think through your goal and your goals achievement so that you can get—weigh that goal down in your mind to such a degree that you have the power of conviction.

Jim Rembach:   You had mentioned another quote that kind of stood out to you as well and I really want to hear because some of the quotes that you’ve had in the book are just absolutely fantastic.

Dean Lindsay:    All right here we go. Dr. Victor Frankel the gentleman who wrote Man’s Search for Meaning, amazing book. What man actually needs is not a tension less state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him 

Jim Rembach:   Dr. Frankel being a Holocaust survivor, I can only imagine what he had to withhold within himself in order to survive that.

Dean Lindsay:    Oh man, yeah, he had already come up with the concept of logo therapy prior to going in there that’s what he’s talking about, logo therapy meaning therapy—I went to a lot of his—he’s passed away but I did I have the opportunity to be in relationships with him and I had very close relationships with him. Logo therapy—he came up with it prior to going to a concentration camp. In fact, he’s considered to be the third father of Viennese psychiatry, we’ve got Freud and Adler and then Franco. When Franco was little I used to write letters to Freud, he was a big fan and he’s in to this stuff. He said some other stuff that we now take kind of is just like PHAT here and you realize that wasn’t the way we thought about humans. He’s the one who said you can’t control what happens to you but you can control your reaction.

Jim Rembach:   Thanks for sharing. I know when you started thinking about everything from the championship and struggles and business and struggles and coaching and theater and all of the things that you’ve gone through there’s humps that you’ve had to get over that really helped define and get you where you are today. Is there a time where you’ve gotten over the hump that you can share with us?

Dean Lindsay:    Well sure. You know, I guess it is interesting and I do I do own now my entire bio. There was a time when I didn’t make the correlation with people that I had a performance background and oddly enough it made sense at that time because I had a client who had retained my services first from sales training programs, she was at the first one It was a great turnout got feedback sheets everything was great and over the lunch period before I got on the plane I shared that I had an acting background and I had been in Twister and Walker Texas Ranger and all that stuff. And we had a scheduled meeting on the phone she just talk about the next one and the guy got on the phone and said, I heard you are an actor, well, yeah, I had that background 15 years ago I was also a bartender and a lifeguard and he said, we thought we were getting a sales trainer not an actor. He declined the other two programs just because he thought for some reason that was something negative about the craft of acting, the best actors are so in tune with the human condition. Anyway, it just a trippy thing, so yeah, I had reason to be—but I don’t do that now it was not positive also because then I was kind of holding back the things that I can offer.  That was probably a turning point for me and can’t get over that. 

Jim Rembach:   Thanks for sharing that. That’s a really interesting point that you bring up and even going back and now reflecting up on the book—all of those things really were our drivers you’re looking at your six P’s the why you do that for that given time those things fit.

Dean Lindsay:    Yeah, yeah. It makes perfect sense to me I’m really jazzed about everything and now I am coming full circle. I have had a TV show that I host and so I’m using those skills now whereas before I was just trying to go one dimensional and that’s there reason I’m talking about the music, I’m letting my light shine.

Jim Rembach:   And we’re glad you’re doing that. You got the music you got the business you got the book you got a lot of things going on but if you were to look at one thing that was a goal, what would it be? 

Dean Lindsay:    I want to sing one of my songs on Saturday Night Live wearing a B costume.

Jim Rembach:   And the Fast Leader Legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor.

The number one thing that contributes to customer loyalty is emotions. So move onward and upward faster by gaining significantly deeper insight and understanding of your customer journey and personas with emotional intelligence with your empathy mapping workshop. You learn how to evoke and influence the right customer emotions that generally improve customer loyalty and reduce your cost to operate. Get over your emotional hump now by going to www.empathymapping.com to learn more. 

Alright, here we go Fast Leader Legion it’s time for the Hump Day Hoedown. Okay, Dean the Hump Day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Dean Lindsay, are you ready to hoedown? 

Jim Rembach:   I hope, I think so, yes sir. 

Dean Lindsay:    I’m sure you are.

Jim Rembach:   Okay, so what do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

Dean Lindsay:    Patience. 

Jim Rembach:    What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?

Dean Lindsay:    Breathe. 

Jim Rembach:   What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

Dean Lindsay:    Breathing. Let me define breathing, deep long, slow breaths in and out. 

Jim Rembach:   What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life? Deep breathing?

Dean Lindsay:    Yeah, really, and humor–empathetic humor. I try to be creatively helpful. 

Jim Rembach:   What would be one book that you’d recommend to our listeners, and it can be from any genre, now of course we’re going to put a link to, How to Achieve Big Phat goals, on your show notes page as well. 

Dean Lindsay:    Well thank you for that. It would be, Man’s Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl. 

Jim Rembach:  Okay, Fast Leader legion you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to www.fastleader.net/deanlindsey. Okay, Dean, this is my last hump day hoedown question: Imagine you were given the opportunity go back to the age of 25 and you’ve been given the opportunity to take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you. But you can’t take everything back you can only choose one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

Dean Lindsay:    Nutrition. Because I’m just now making the right choices and they’re just good choices but I just didn’t know. I’d be about 35 lbs. lighter and I’d still be able to fit in size 32 whereas now I’m just so excited if I can ever get into a 34, anyway. So yeah, nutrition got tear this temple, I would have made a commitment to egg whites and eggs much earlier. 

Jim Rembach:   Dean, it was an honor to spend time with you today. Can you please share with the Fast Leader legion how they can connect with you?

Dean Lindsay:    www.deanlindsey.com or you can email me and that would be dean@deanlindsey.com. And I’ve got to be living all over, I’ve got the whole LinkedIn and the Facebook and all that, just look up Dean Lindsey. Thank you, thank you for having me on the show. 

Jim Rembach:   Dean Lindsey, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show, special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster. 

 

END OF AUDIO 

 

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gerry-barber-leadership-podcast-banner-fastleadershow

013: Gerry Barber: We were dysfunctional

Podcast Show Notes with Gerry Barber

Gerry was fortunate to learn a valuable lesson as a young leader that helped to change his path. Being an eager and confident leader he volunteered to lead a team in a business simulation as part of a leadership development program. Gerry thought he knew a lot about leadership, but he didn’t know what he didn’t know. His first day was a disaster and they were pretty much dysfunctional as a team. Listen to Gerry as he tells his story and the epiphany he had that caused him to turn things around so you can use his experience to move onward and upward faster.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Check out Gerry Barber getting over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow Click to Tweet

“Leadership and learning are indispensable of each other.” JFK told by Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“If you stop learning you are not going to be a leader for very long.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“Change is absolute and change is happening so rapidly today.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“Social media is the future of interactions for our world.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“When you learn together you become stronger together.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“Leadership is about influence.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“Realize your team brings something to the table.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“To be a great leader you need to be able to give each team member the time they need.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“Sit down and write your leadership point of view.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

“Keep business simple.” -Gerry Barber Click to Tweet

As a young leader, Gerry got the got the opportunity to participate in a four-year executive management program. The group of 30 people was split into separate teams that would compete against each other in a simulation to run all aspects of a business. Being eager and confident Gerry volunteered to lead his team for the first year. He thought he knew a lot about leadership at that time, but he didn’t know what he didn’t know. That first day he had a very difficult time. He was telling people what to do and was asking folks to do this and that and wasn’t doing some of the things that he really should do as a leader. When the team convened that day they were pretty much dysfunctional as a team. After a long night of reflection about all that went wrong he finally came to the realization that leadership is not about telling people what to do or making decisions.

Leadership Epiphany

Leadership is not about telling people what to do or making decisions, it’s about influence.

Advice for others

Realize your team brings something to the table and while you are the leader it’s a collective experience.

Holding him back from being an even better leader

Limited time to spend developing others.

Best Leadership Advice Received

You need to sit down and write down your leadership point of view.

Secret to Success

Living as a servant leader and putting my people first.

Best Resources in Business or Life

Books and CIAC certification, memories, mentors

Recommended Reading

You Don’t Need a Title to Be a Leader: How Anyone, Anywhere, Can Make a Positive Difference

Leading at a Higher Level, Revised and Expanded Edition: Blanchard on Leadership and Creating High Performing Organizations

The First 90 Days: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter, Updated and Expanded

Contacting Gerry

email: gbarber [at] deloitte.com

Phone: 615-882-7792

More Resources

54 Emotional Intelligence (EQ) Competencies List: Emotional Intelligence has proven to be the right kind of intelligence to have if you want to move onward and upward faster. Get your free list today.

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

013: Gerry Barber: We were dysfunctional

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader Podcast, where we uncover the leadership like hat that help you to experience, break out performance faster and rocket to success.  And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligent practitioner, Jim Rembach.

Jim Rembach:   Thanks Kimberly. Okay Fast Leader legion, I am blessed to get the opportunity to introduce to you the person that I get to introduce to today. Gerry Barber has been a longtime friend and I always link to him to help me get over my own hump. He’s full of wisdom. He’s full of reserve energy that is rare and greatly appreciated, I don’t know, maybe he got that from living and growing up on the South side Chicago where he played a lot of baseball, and that’s one of the connections that we have together. I don’t know about the rock ‘n roll drummer that he was trying to be able to become but he had to grow up just like we all do. 

 

He moved into what I would refer to as operational excellence and he work with a lot of organizations and retail customer care and support and has built leaders throughout his own career. Today, he lives just outside of Nashville, Tennessee with his wife Jenny of 38 years and has two grown boys. Gerry Barber, are you ready to help us get over the hump?

 

Gerry Barber:     I’m going to take you up and I’m going to take you over. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Awesome. 

 

Gerry Barber:     Let’s go.

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright. I’ve given our listeners a brief introduction but can you tell us a little bit more about what your current passion is so that we can get to know you better?

 

Gerry Barber:     I’m very passionate about what I do in my work which relates to contact centers and shared services. I have fun every day at the office but when I’m away from the office there are many other things that I like to get involved with. One of those is putting my top down on my little Miata and riding the back roads of Tennessee. It’s a great stress reliever and a fun way just to get lost on a Saturday afternoon, I can’t wait spring is coming and so I should get a lot of days coming up be able to do just that.

 

Jim Rembach:     Thanks for sharing that with me. I appreciate what you had referred to as far as the therapy associated with that and wish you sunny days. So, here on the Fast Leader Show we are always looking for inspirations that will help us get over the hump. And we like to focus in on leadership quotes or passages to help us do that. And I know throughout the course of your career you probably had several that you had to lean on in order to help you. But, is there one that stands out that you’d like to share with our listeners?

Gerry Barber:     Jim, yes. There’s one that throughout my career keeps on being in the forefront of my mind. Leadership and learning are indispensable of each other, that’s a quote by our late great Pres. John F. Kennedy, and simply put that, if you stop learning you’re not going to be a leader for very long. Change is absolute and changes are happening so rapidly today that that quote in itself is more important than any other that I think about on a daily basis.

 

Jim Rembach:    There’s some really important information that we can glean from that. But for you, how do you apply the meaning of that quote in your life today?

 

Gerry Barber:     That’s simple. I subscribe to servant leadership. Servant leadership means simply you put your people first. And when you put your people first that means you want to find the ways that they can grow. Grow in their career, grown in their lives and get satisfaction from what they do. So, I invest a lot of time in my team members and my people to insure that they grow as leaders.

 

Jim Rembach:     You had mentioned something to me before that I stood out when you started talking about having people that are better than you working for you. There’s  so many of us that live in fear and we don’t want transfer what we know to somebody else because—they may take my job—how do you overcome that fear so that you can thrive? 

 

Gerry Barber:     This is a question that’s a difficult challenge for one zig, alright and many of us leaders have somewhat of an ego. I’m going to be honest here, I’m in the twilight of my career, meaning that retirement is only a couple years away. And recently, I have worked very hard to help my team become the best they can be but I’ve also added a team member who I firmly believe has a greater chance of taking our contact center to an even higher level of performance over the years. One of the things that this particular individual brings to the table is a great and deep understanding of social media. Social media is the future of interactions for our world and with her here shall be able to help us move forward. I don’t have that fear anymore, I in fact been embraced the fact that will take the legacy of what we’ve built here and enhance it even more for the new social world. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I guess there’s maybe some struggle that some folks. If there’s somebody who has a particular skill or knowledge and you really develop their skills even more, how do you help that person do just that?

 

Gerry Barber:     One of the things that I’ve used, I was going to talk about it later in our  discussion but I’ll bring it up now, is that I’ve built a lot of learning on having book clubs. And so we’ll take a book and I don’t just sit there and teach, everyone who is part of that book club for the period of time, usually it is six weeks and we meet once a week, we take a chapter or two or three at a time to discuss. Each individual who becomes part of that book club will take a chapter, and the books are great book on leadership, on business or on contact centers. Whatever the flavor of the day is for us to grow we do it together. When you do it together you learn together and you become stronger together.

Jim Rembach:   Oh, some really sage and powerful advice there. However, I know that getting to the point to where you are now and being somebody who’s probably producing leaders at a much faster rate than you did at your youth you had challenges, we all have them, we have humps that we need to get over. Can you think of a time where you had to get over one and that kind of shape and guided you to really where you are today, can you share that with us please?

 

Gerry Barber:     Let me share a story, and you’re going to have to bear with me because this maybe a little drawn out here but I want to get some of the facts out. It’s circa 1983, I was very young leader, and I have been working with Quill Corporation at Lincolnshire, Illinois at that time. I got the opportunity to participate in a four year executive management program put on by the American Management Association. This program was built to meet once a year for a full week and then have homework and deliverables in between the year. So, it was it was set up where we were broken up into five teams of six people, so there’s roughly 30 people if my math is right, participating in the program together for all four years. We came together and on the first morning of the first day I think I had one of the best leadership lessons I could’ve ever had in my career. So, on that first morning we broke up into teams and six of us came together as a new team. 

 

Each of us came from a different business, different business model even maybe a different part of the country, because this was not just exclusively regional, there was folks from L.A. as well as Chicago and Boston and in other points in between. So we got together, and heady me, raise my hand and said I’d like to lead the first year, because he had to name a leader for each year, and I said I would be a leader for the first year. And so there we went on our first day and the object of the of the four years is through simulation run a business, everything from HR management, manufacturing, development and producing a products in paper and theory in this in the simulation all the way to managing profit and loss and managing the business. And at the end of four years, each year you would get rated as to where you were at against the other teams. 

 

So, I took that leadership position, I thought I knew a lot about leadership at that time but I didn’t know what I did know. And so, on that first day I had a very difficult time, I was telling people what to do. I was asking folks to do this, that and wasn’t doing some of the things that we really should do as a leader. When I left that day we were pretty much dysfunctional as a team. I went back to my hotel room and had a lot of time to think about all that went wrong and at the end of the day, and in the beginning of the morning, I came to the realization, and this is my Aha moment, that leadership is not about telling people what to do or making decisions for the larger group, and in fact with this group which is different than what I had managed before, these were all peers. They came from different organizations, they were probably senior managers of this or director of that. And so—why would they listen to me? They didn’t have to. They didn’t have any fear, I wasn’t paying them as would happen in my job before? And thus it occurred to me and that hump that I had to get over was, I had to learn that leadership is about influence that is the lesson that I learned. When I  so when I figured that out, and it’s probably two o’clock in the morning, I got a couple of hours of sleep and we met back again at 8 AM at the facility and I simply apologized to the team for my actions of the day before and that I wasn’t really displaying a leadership view. I was humble about apologizing and that I want to listen and engage and see where we could take it. Well, the good news is that I think alone my humble apology helped influence a change. And from there in the first year we came in second, the five teams. But had I not had that realization, and had I not kept that all these years, I don’t think I’d be the leader I am today. 

 

Jim Rembach:     So many pieces of insight. What you’ve learned that we can leverage to help us get over the hump much faster than we would otherwise. And that epiphany that you shared with us, we called them epiphanies, a lot of times here on the show, I think I’ve even been through myself, but when you look at many different pieces within that story and our Fast Leader Legion having the challenges that they have, what advice would you actually give them to help them move forward faster?

 

Gerry Barber:     Realize that your team brings something to the table and that while your leader assigned or unassigned whatever it is, and you don’t need a title necessarily to be leader—I love that book incidentally by Sanborn—that it’s a collective experience and the idea of trying to come to some clear vision with and for the team is extraordinarily important to success but listening first before doing.

 

Jim Rembach:   Oh, I love that, thank you for sharing that with us. When you start talking about what really excites you today with the work that you’re doing, what is it?

 

Gerry Barber:      While I mentioned I’m in the twilight of my career, I’m having more fun now in my career that I’ve had in all the years prior. I’ve had such tremendous opportunity to really become the leader I wanted to be and to act on that. After six years of leading the Lloyd’s contacts and our operations, I was given the opportunity and responsibility to lead now a full transformation of our expense management operations, which I am so excited about at this point time in my career because I can do all the things that I’ve learned and put them into practice again even at this late date, and I’m enjoying every minute of it. 

 

I’ve been into it a year now, it’s a cultural transformation, it’s a technology transformation, and it’s a process transformation. And while I’ve been in it for a year there’s still a lot of things that we need to do. The cultural side of it I think has been improved and were moving along with the great solid organization with a clear vision and the right strategies in place to be successful over time and take us from good to great and so, I’m excited. Now comes all of the technology and the process improvements that we’ve measured and have said, these are our strategies to the affect transformation. So, now I get to see and be part of a team who will unleash those transformational activities over the next two years before I say goodbye.

 

Jim Rembach:     The Fast Leader legion wishes you the very best. 

 

Gerry Barber:     We’re having fun.

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright, here we go Fast Leader listeners it’s time for the—Hump Day Hoedown. Okay Gerry the Hump Day Hoedown is the part of our show where you give us good insight fast. I’m going to ask you several question and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Gerry, are you ready to hoedown?

 

Gerry Barber:     I’m going to try, try my best. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

 

Gerry Barber:     That’s very simple. My time is at a premium and to be a great leader you need to be able to give each team member the time they need to improve themselves. I’m finding it harder and harder with having multiple responsibilities, contact center and the expense management of organization, to give the right amount of time. Hopefully I see my way clearer in about six months where I can really then begin to devote my time to individuals versus just the transformation.

 

Jim Rembach:     What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?

 

Gerry Barber:     Actually it came from a book. And in that book it said: You need to sit down and write your leadership point of view. I think for your legions you’ll understand that it really talks about who you are and how you got to the point of the leader you are, what your expectations are for yourself, and what your expectation is for your team members and your peers in which you do business with or interact on any life situation? And so, that has been very dear to me. 

 

When I came first I had read the book, and the book incidentally, I know you’re going to probably ask me what’s my favorite book, this is it it’s called ‘Leading at a Higher Level’ it’s by the Blanchard group, it’s a copulation of everything they’ve done in the business world on leadership for a good number of years and it’s really great shelf reference as well. It walks you through thinking about and developing your leadership point of view, as well as part of the book. And so,  right before I came to Deloitte I had found that book and was using it as research in my role with CIAC, The Competency and Certification Group that was part of ICMI, and utilize a lot of thought processes from that book as we build competencies work [inaudible 16:34] our leadership.

 

I had used the leadership point of view as my letter to my new teams here at Deloitte when I arrived and I can tell you that it closed a lot of gaps that people normally have like, who the hell is this guy? And what’s he’s going to do us? It was all there in black and white, where I came from, what I believe in, what I expect from myself, and what I expect from them and where we might go as a team together, and it was great. I use it again when I took the leadership role of our expense management organization just a year ago, to also introduce myself and move quickly from ‘we don’t know this guy’ to ‘hey, we’re part of a team. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What do feel is one of your secrets that contributes to your success?

 

Gerry Barber:     I mentioned it earlier and that’s living as a servant leader and putting your people first and making sure that we work together to have a clear vision and chart the right strategies for our journey. That journey continues in the contact center and in our expense management organization. 

 

Jim Rembach:    What do you feel is one of your best resources that helps you lead in business or life?

 

Gerry Barber:     My best resource is always to go to books and I use that leadership at a higher level as a Bible, so it’s a great desk reference, I think I mentioned that earlier, and I go to that. I also believe in the competencies in the art and science of contact center leadership. So, I utilize the developmental manuals that were built for the CIC certification as my guide too in leading contact center. Beyond that its memories and interactions with a couple of great mentors that I had my career. One that comes to mind is Jack Miller who was the patriarch of Quill and got it started and let it for a good many of years before it was sold to Staples. He always told me in business keep it simple. If I’m going to sell you a pen, here’s what it is and here’s how much it cost and you make the transaction and you go on, so keep business simple.

 

Jim Rembach:     Great advice. So, you already mentioned your favorite book were going to take that and give links to that on our show notes page where you’ll be able to find at fastleader.net/Gerry Barber. Alright Gerry, the last Hump Day Hoedown question: Imagine you woke up tomorrow morning and you were 25 years old again, you’re supposed to now manage a group that is underperforming and are disengaged but you’ve been blessed you get to retain everything that you’ve learned up until today. So, you get up in the morning, you head out to work, what you do now?

 

Gerry Barber:     In a way that happened to me last year. No, I didn’t go back to 25 and wasn’t able to run a fast 40 a yard dash, but it really is that scenario, I was moving into an area of our operations that I didn’t have a lot of subject matter expert for expense management, expense audit card management, if you will for our organization. I was asked to bring my leadership skills to the table to help in this transformation of group, I won’t say that they were disconnected, they were doing good work, didn’t have the right technologies didn’t have the right processes and sorely needed the right leadership.

 

There’s another book that I will share and that’s called ‘The First 90 days. It was a book written by Michael Watkins, it’s a Harvard Press, I believe, but don’t quote me on that. It’s a book I used when I arrived at Deloitte and it’s a book I used again when I took on the responsibilities for the transformation. Basically in that book it helps you understand how you should go about taking on that new responsibility, that new transformation, that new organization that needs to be improved. And in that first 90 days, it’s so crucial to be listening to help people understand who you are to begin to craft an understanding of what is needed and then to rally people around a clear vision to go into the future for that journey that you’re about to take together. You should not make rash judgments and decisions in that 90 days just to appease your boss or some other group who wants to see the transformation done the week after you get in there, you got to resist those type of things. Following the guidance in the First 90 Days book is absolutely a wonderful way to go about tackling the scenario that you talk about. And so, I would encourage anyone who is starting a new job, starting new roll or taking over a transformation of another part of their organization to read that book and let that book guide you through the process.

 

Jim Rembach:   Gerry Barber, it was an honor to spend time with you today please share with Fast Leader listeners how they can connect with you?

 

Gerry Barber:     That’s easy. Again I work with Deloitte, I could be found at GBarber@deloitte.com or you can give me a call at 615-882-7792 be happy to chat with anyone who wants to talk about leadership anytime. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Gerry, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom, the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show, special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster.

 

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