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Hamish Knox on the Fast Leader Show | Accountability The Sandler Way

202: Hamish Knox: I just stopped learning

Hamish Knox Show Notes Page

Hamish Knox had the worst 20-minutes of his life. He was on a prospecting call with a senior vice president of a chemical company and he failed miserably. He knew all of the content he needed to know, but that was not good enough. Hamish realized he stopped learning and was unable to add value.

Hamish Hamish Knox grew up in the village of Malakwa (Mal-a-kwa), British Columbia halfway between Vancouver and Calgary on the Trans-Canada Highway on a 10-acre hobby farm. His parent’s instilled in him a passion for education and discovering, George Carlin at the age of eight instilled a love of language and languages that continues to this day.

Both of his parents have a background in education, if he’s being cheeky he’ll say that he joined Sandler because his mom always wanted him to be a teacher. Hamish actually started coaching when he was in his teens as one of the founding coaches of the Sicamous (Sick-a-moos), British Columbia Minor Soccer Associates.

He also founded the men’s basketball team with five friends at his secondary school when he was in grade 10 and founded the women’s basketball team as head coach when he was in grade 11.

Hamish owns Sandler in Calgary, part of the larger global Sandler network, but he started out as a sport journalist mostly writing for the Other Press in New Westminster, British Columbia. He also wrote for Inside Lacrosse Magazine and has written for India Business Magazine and the GreenSky blog.

Hamish has written two books, both on topics no one likes to talk about. Accountability the Sandler Way was published in November 2014 and Change the Sandler Way followed in September 2016.

His work fueled his passion for education specifically gaining expertise in neuroscience, human psychology, behavior and development. A model of the human brain sits in the primary training room of his training centre and is a recurring feature during sessions, especially with his leadership development group.

Shortly after he joined the network, Hamish started training in muay Thai under Ajarn (ah-jarn (master)) Mike Miles in Calgary where he discovered synergies between the structure of muay Thai and the structure of the systems he shares with his clients. In 2016 he earned his first level black prajiat (pray-ji-at (belt)) and continues to train regularly while supporting fighters at the gym through sponsorships so they can compete locally and internationally.

Hamish lives in Calgary with his wife of 16 years and two daughters, 6 and 3. He also makes jam and sausage…. Sometimes he shares.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @sandlerhamish to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow – Click to Tweet 

“If it comes out of their mouth it’s real, if it comes out for your mouth, you’re a pushy micro-manager.” Click to Tweet 

“The biggest fear of a leader is, I don’t want to have to go through the pain of hiring.” Click to Tweet 

“Accountability should be a support mechanism and not a stick.” Click to Tweet 

“Your people don’t work for you because they love you, they believe that working for you is going to get them to reaching their personal goals faster.” Click to Tweet 

“When you can tie achievement of their personal goals to achievement of your corporate goals, now they own it.” Click to Tweet 

“Until we establish where you are trying to go, we have no way to design a path to get there.” Click to Tweet 

“We need to define what are the mountaintops that you’re trying to get to and the whys behind those mountain tops.” Click to Tweet 

“You win or you learn.” Click to Tweet 

“Let’s go from zero to one and build from there.” Click to Tweet 

“If we can separate our success and our roles from our self-worth we can win or learn” Click to Tweet 

“Sometimes we have to have difficult conversation, but those are better conversations than the ones we could have down the road.” Click to Tweet 

“A goal is something that’s internal.” Click to Tweet 

“A leader’s number one job is to create clarity.” Click to Tweet 

“The word consequence is neutral, but most people layer it as negative.” Click to Tweet 

Hump to Get Over

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Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

202: Hamish Knox: I just stopped learning

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast, where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

 

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies that is the blueprint that develops high-performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen so go to callcentercoach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path e-book now.

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay Fast Leader legion today I’m excited because we have somebody on the show today who hopefully is going to help me get over something that I’ve had a problem with for a long time and if I have a problem with it I would dare to suspect that a lot of other folks do as well. Hamish Knox grew up in the village of Malakwa (Mal-a-kwa) British Columbia, halfway between Vancouver and Calgary on the Trans-Canada highway on a 10-acre hobby farm. His parents instilled in him a passion for education and discovery. George Carlin at the age of 8 instilled a love of language and languages that continues to this day. Both of his parents have a background in education. If he’s being cheeky he’ll say that he joined Sandler because his mom always wanted him to be a teacher. Hamish actually started coaching when he was in his teens as one of the founding coaches of the Sicamous (Sick-a-moos) British Columbia Minor Soccer Associates. He also founded the men’s basketball team with five friends at his secondary school when he was in grade 10 and founded a women’s basketball team as head coach when he was in grade 11. 

Hamish owns Sandler in Calgary part of the larger global Sandler network but he started out as a sport journalist mostly writing for the other press in Westminster British Columbia. He also wrote for Inside Lacrosse magazine and has written for India Business magazine and the Green Sky blog. Hamish has written two books both on topics no one likes to talk about, Accountability the Sandler Way and Change the Sandler Way.  His work fueled his passion for education specifically gaining expertise in

Neuroscience, human psychology, behavior, and development. A model of the human brain sits in his primary training room of his training center and is a reoccurring feature during sessions especially with his leadership development group. Shortly after he joined Sandler network, Hamish started training in Muay Thai under Master Mike Miles in Calgary where he discovered synergies between the structure of Muay Thai and the structure of the systems he shares with his client. 

 

In 2016, he earned his first black belt and continues to train regularly while supporting fighters at the gym through sponsorships so that they can compete locally and internationally. Hamish lives in Calgary with his wife of 16 years Kim and daughters Taylor and Lexie. He also makes jam and sausage and sometimes he says he shares—sometimes. Hamish Knox, are you ready to help us get over the hump? 

 

Hamish Knox:     I am ready Jim, let’s rock and roll. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I’m glad you’re here and I’m glad we’re talking about this particular subject. But before we go into that I’ve shared with my Legion a little bit about you but can you share what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better?

 

Hamish Knox:     Absolutely. My passion is really around human behavior and the brain. If you stripped Sandler down to the core we’re about facilitating better human to human interactions and supporting our clients to have better human to human interactions personally professionally, so I love human behavior. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Well, you and I had an opportunity to talk off mic I said for me being in the customer care, customer service contact center industry I said, well heck, we’re doing the same thing but it’s at mass scale. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Totally. 

 

Jim Rembach:     And so for me though going on this particular topic of accountability, we also talked off mic about this a little bit, and so for me it’s gotten to the point where I just cannot stand hearing that word because it’s been so vilified in the media and any time I hear holding people accountable my mind start seeing hands around a throat and starting to be clinched and squeezed. That’s not what we want to do with people and acquaintances and friends and heck just think about it from a society perspective, I don’t think that’s where it should be, do you? 

 

Hamish Knox:     No, not at all. What I do believe is that accountability is exactly what you described, Jim, it’s the beatings will continue until morale improves which is not a great way to run a business or a society or a family or a friendship. If people come to you and a micromanager is someone who’s saying, hey Jim, what are you doing on this hey Jim what are you doing on that hey Jim what are you doing on this? But what we teach our clients to do is if I come to you on Monday and say, hey Jim high five, great to see you what are you going to accomplish this week? And you might say, well I’m going to move this file forward and I’m going to work on this project and do this and this and this and this. I’ll say great, Jim, see you on Friday. And on Friday we sit down and go, hey Jim, high five, great week on Monday you said you were going to do this this this this and this, how do you do? And you might say, man I walked it on that project. And then you say, well but you know this other thing kind of slipped off because I was fighting the fire. Hey, Jim, these things happen how are you going to make it up? As I tell all the leaders I work with—if it comes out of their mouth it’s real if it comes out of your mouth you’re a pushy micro manager. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Thanks for sharing that. What you just talked about right there is one of the myths that you refer to one of the top myths that accountability goes in the book and there’s three others, of course because we said four, so big brother that was the one that you were referring to and the other two three are: too much time, veteran team and they’ll leave. If you could tell us a little bit about what too much time actually means?

 

Hamish Knox:     So too much time is exactly the excuse that I get back from leaders role where they say, Hamish, accountability great idea it’s going to take way too much time. This is actually built on there are people coming back and saying we’ll use the sales contacts. Hey, Jim I really want to be accountable I really want to do that CRM entry and track my activities but you’re just going to have to assume that I’m going to do less sales because I’m doing all this extra admit work. And the fact of the matter is that’s not true because you make the accountability program fit the way that your people work naturally so it’s going to be a bit different for everybody but everybody’s going to hit the same mountaintop. And then the leaders think, wall it’s going to take away too much time because as you’ve identified they’ve socialized been socialized that accountability is hands around the throat I got a wrestle you in the submission. Uh-huh all I’m doing is using your own data that you gave me on Monday to circle back on Friday and say, how do you do? 

 

Jim Rembach:     That’s a good point. In addition as you were talking I started thinking about one of the quotes that I started sharing with my kids that resonates with them now it’s like, okay you can take easy now and deal with hard later or do the hard now and receive the gift of easy later. So when you start talking about the whole accountability piece too much time it’s like okay well, where do you want to spend it? Because you’re going to be on the back end of it trying to fix the things that you didn’t address on the front end. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Exactly. 

 

Jim Rembach:     The other thing is you talked about veteran team. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Well, the veteran team comes in two flavors. The one is talking to a leader. And they go, listen Hamish, we’ve got a veteran team these people know what they need to do they are doing what they think they need to do in order to be successful and most of them are probably stuck very deeply into a comfort zone but because it hasn’t been detrimental to the organization the leader just lets it go. The other side of it is when a leaders got an accountability program in place, and I’ve seen this happen several times with my clients they bring a veteran in doesn’t matter what the role is, they bring a veteran in and the veteran says, listen got it accountability great for you great for those newbies that you’ve got on your team but you hired me because I’m a veteran I’ve got an experience I’ve got a book of business I don’t need that accountability stuff. I was telling this story to a CEO group that I was speaking to and there was a leader in there from a large construction company and they put up their hand and said every veteran they’ve ever hired has not worked out for that exact reason. 

 

Jim Rembach:     For me I just started thinking about the whole screening process. I know now, maybe I didn’t know back then, when they start talking about the whole experience thing versus mindset and attitude and everything else, I would rather hire somebody who is a continuous learner who has some humility  someone who thinks they know it all and therefore they’re not open to new ideas. We’re also talking about the veteran team component, for many years I was part of doing analytics work for contact centers and we looked at customer experience associated with people performance and what we actually found is that those veteran folks they had some really bad habits that caused some really bad issues. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Yeah. Not surprising. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Well it is and so what we found is that we can even put a time clock on it from a calendar perspective and know that typically in a contact center we talked about frontline workers about that 11 month time frame is when that decline started to occur. We actually saw a negative impact to the customer experience for people who had tenure hitting that window and it was fairly common across a lot of different companies and industries. And so we kind of built that into the process to say, okay, this is coming so you need to start doing some intervention components and elements at month 10 so that you don’t experience that decline. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Absolutely.  

 

Jim Rembach:     When you start talking about data and analytics and working with clients do you see some similar type of tendencies when you start talking about this accountability component and tenure and life cycle and things along those line?

 

Hamish Knox:     Absolutely. When it comes into launching the program it’s really building that why. It’s not just like, hey I had this idea or I read a book by some guy named Hamish and now all of a sudden we’re going to do accountability there’s got to be a real reason why behind it and that actually ties into the whole they’ll leave components. The biggest fear of a leader is, I don’t want to have to go through the pain of hiring. The fact is that you’re going to have turnover and what my clients have experienced is the people who self-select, which is my favorite HR cliché when they implement an accountability program, are the ones they probably wanted off their bus anyways and now they have a mechanism to gently and nurturingly move them off the bus and in a couple of cases it was some of the higher performers who had built their success on really a bunch of sand and it was going to fall apart and so as soon as they saw this accountability program they’re like, well I can’t keep sweeping stuff under the rug anymore I better just get out of here. And then what was uncovered after they left was they had built their success on a bed of sand and it was going to fall apart. It’s good that we learned about this now instead of later. 

 

Jim Rembach:     It’s interesting that you bring that up and so from my perspective one of the things that I always try to do is flip this whole accountability thing to an ownership scenario. Meaning that we want people to take ownership of the things that we want them to take ownership of and from an accountability perspective I want them to do that themselves hold yourself accountable have that be something that’s a self-motivation issue and a self-responsibility issue. For me I just want you to own this piece and I try to create environment therefore people will do that. How does that differ or how does that align with what you’re talking about?

 

Hamish Knox:     Oh, you’re absolutely right. Accountability should be a support mechanism not a stick. And one of the mantras that the leaders we work with here regularly is, you’re people don’t work for you because they love you or your business they work for you because they believe that working for you is going to get them to reaching their personal goals faster than working for someone else. And so when they do turnover and they leave and they’re going to say it’s for more money or a better title or better benefits or more flexibility what they really mean is they believe that working for someone else is going to get them to their personal mountaintop faster than staying for your team. So when you can tie achievement of their personal goals to achievement of your corporate goals now they own it now you’ve got a rocket ship who’s going to blast you further than you ever wanted to be because they’re self-motivated and all you need to do is gently support them along the way up to those mountain tops both personal and professional.

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay, as you were talking I started thinking about yet another thing that for me it’s just like why would you do that? Because talking about the human behavior and the neuroscience is that this whole exit interview thing. First of all, even if they knew this whole goal issue they don’t know how to verbalize that and they’re not going to. So when you start looking at the data that they give from exit interviews it’s like, how really valuable is that? Okay, one of the things you talked about right there also was this whole helping people to understand their goals and you do have several different components of going through that particular process in helping people to do that. And when you start looking at organizations that you’ve worked with, because here’s one of my things that also too I think is a huge gap is that I don’t think that a lot of people like to go through the exercise and activity of helping to identify those things for themselves. And that the only way that they go through any type of goal setting or even values, what are your values, is when they do it in a corporate environment they typically don’t do it by self. 

 

Hamish Knox:     True. 

 

Jim Rembach:     How much time do you actually spend going through that activity and helping people to become effective at that activity as part of putting in an accountability program?

 

Hamish Knox:     It’s one of the first exercises that we do with any of our clients. It’s because until we establish where you are trying to go we have no way to design a path to get there. Yogi Bear our very current reference for everyone who’s listening, I always said, if you don’t know where you’re going you might end up someplace else and so we need to really define what are the mountaintops that you’re trying to get to and the whys behind those mountain tops and then we can design a path from base camp where we’re at today all the way to the path of the mountain. 

 

The other side of it Jim, you’re absolutely right is we typically don’t do goal-setting because what is beaten into us from the time that we’re in grade school is you win or you lose but we believe that you win or you learn. So, yes you may fail you may not get to your mountaintop but what I have seen both in myself and in in people I work with if I say that I’m going to set a goal of losing five pounds, we’ll make it something that probably everyone who’s listening has done or had a friend do, I’m going to lose five pounds I may only lose four pounds but it’s probably four more pounds that I lost that I wouldn’t have if I didn’t set that goal and  what we teach our clients to do is just be better than zero. If you’re not exercising do a push-up, now you’re exercising and build from there but especially from winner’s people who are the type A mindset that’s not good enough right they should be doing 25 push-ups, well, no, no, no, you got to build from somewhere because if you go from zero to 25 push-ups you’re going to burn out you’re going to fail. And that’s the same thing with accountability is ongoing growth over time. Let’s not go from zero to 60 let’s go from zero to one and go from there. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I think that’s a great point. Another thing that you talk about in the book is this IR theory and I think it’s a very valuable point that I think pretty much everybody needs to go through, so talk about the IR theory. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Thanks for asking about that Jim. IR, I is identity R is role. Roles are the answers to I am a blank. If I say, hey Jim, what are you? I’m a podcaster, I’m a business person, etc. etc. etc. all the labels that you apply to yourself. One of my colleagues says they’re like suits you can take them on and off. Right like now I’m going home I’m going to put on the dad suit and the husband suit, those are things that are given to us as we grow through our life. Like when we’re born we have no roles and the identity is all the self, it’s everything that’s related to ourselves it’s our self-concept it’s our self-worth it’s our self-identity. I say to my clients when I was born my parents didn’t say, oh look, we got an entrepreneur we were hoping for an engineer but we got an entrepreneur instead and much less a salesperson. Oh, no, no, and they said we got a wonderful human being. What we what we end up with is what we call IR confusion. We believe that success in our role determines our self-worth and the more that we buy into that the less likely we are to risk because if we buy in to that concept that our success and our roles is our self-worth well if we fail now we’re a failure, and no one wants to be a failure. Whereas, if we can separate our succession and our roles from our self-worth now we can win or learn and we can take our failures and turn them into learning moments. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I love that you just shared that. To me that’s also one of the things that I often run into because for those that listen to other podcasts on the Fast Leaders show I read a bio and an introduction that’s quite different some people shorten it but I’m like, no, no,no I’m not going to do that. Here’s the reality of our lives it’s not what you do that makes you great it’s who you are that makes what you do great and so therefore the bio that I want to read has a little bit of insight into who these people are that are actually on our show. I’ve had so many guests say, no I’ve never written a bio like that before I didn’t say it was a fun exercise. Even when we meet people we don’t want to know, hey, what do you do? But that’s what we ask. What we want to know is, who are you? And do I want to stay here or get the heck out and that’s what it comes down to. And so I think it’s really important that this whole IR thing really gets fleshed out not just from an accountability or ownership issue or things I just think overall that’s a very, very important exercise that would benefit us all in many different way. 

 

Hamish Knox:     It’s something I have been doing with my eldest daughter since she was probably 2, so in the identity role scale you’re a 10, everyone is a 10 which means you are that wonderful human being. It doesn’t mean you don’t have head trash doesn’t mean you can’t grow but it means you have awesome self-worth just as a human being so I will say, is Taylor and I 10? Actually this morning before I left for work I gave her a hug I said, is Taylor and I 10? And she said, yes I am. And I said great. Ask good questions today.

 

Jim Rembach:     I think that’s awesome it’s great training, it’s a good mindset conditioning. All those things that are important to creating someone who has a good sense of well-being. Kudos, I’m definitely going to have to use that one, I definitely going to have to use that one. Okay, everything that we’re talking about here we’ve hit on another several occasions is really emotional based. Because when we don’t have focus and where we’re not heading in the right direction and we’re not holding ourselves accountable we don’t have over us ownership of something we can’t achieve all those things create negative emotions. On the show we like to look at quotes to hopefully put us in a right and positive mindset. Is there a quote or two that you like that you can share?

 

Hamish Knox:     One them you read it in my bio is—I discovered George Carlin when I was eight which may be too young but he had a quote in his parental advisory album which was, I don’t like euphemistic language it finishes that it finishes with the language that takes the life out of life. I know from personal experience, yeah we don’t like having the mirror held up to us and we don’t like people saying, hey you really let me down or hey you were a bad husband or a bad father or a bad friend or whatever but it sucks in the moment to hear that but it ends up being way better to hear that in the moment then three months six months nine years from now where someone’s got so much pent-up anger and aggression and they just let go on you that they’ve been holding on to this for so long I would rather eliminate the euphemisms and just speak plainly with everyone. Sometimes we have to have difficult conversations but those are better conversations than the ones that we could have down the road. 

 

Jim Rembach:     It’s true we have to address those things prior because they become mountains—you mentioned that word but it was for a better reason (21:42 inaudible) later. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Absolutely. And the other one I guess I would share Jim is one of David Sandler’s rules which is, they can’t argue with their own data and that can sound sort of mean and maybe aggressive but the fact of the matter is like I said earlier if it comes out of their mouth it’s real. And it’s like when we talk about goal-setting and when we talk about goal-setting with leaders they’ll say, well they have quotas if we look at a sales team well they have quotas. Well, a quota is not a goal it’s a gift. A quota is something given to you. It’s a gift because it can allow you to grow from the quota but a goal is something that’s internal. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I think it’s a very important distinction, it’s what you do it’s to who you are. Okay, so talking about the work with the daughter the work with the family even learning martial arts—all of these things I’m sure throughout the course of your life you’ve had some humps that you’ve had to get over but can you share one of the stories so that we can learn?

 

Hamish Knox:     Yeah, two very quick ones. I’ve been a sports addict since I was little. When I was 27 I got to work in Pro sports, so I had my dream job and I was 27. I do remember sitting at my desk I was like two three months into the job and I’m like so where do I go from here? And then I committed to actually doing basketball, I joined a men’s league basketball team I took a bachelor’s degree online, but then also when I got in Sandler, I had a bit of a window between when I joined Sandler and when I actually launched my business, and so in that window I went through all of Sandler’s content three times and so I thought I got this. When I came back from my initial training I just stopped learning. I stopped listening I stopped reading and about eight weeks in I had a 20-minute prospecting call with a senior vice-president for a chemical company which was the single worst twenty minutes of my life. And it wasn’t the 20 minutes worst of my life because of what he did it was because of what I did. I hung up that phone and I called my father and I spent 90 minutes on the phone with him going like, what the heck do I do from here? What is this thing I’ve got into? And it made me realize that I had stopped learning and that was my fault no one else’s. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I think that’s a very good insight. You have to tell us what was the outcome of that. 

 

Hamish Knox:      So after I talked to my dad I committed to a minimum of one hour of Sandler content every day and Sandler’s got lots of audios and videos for the trainers, so every day for one hour I was listening to something. I also committed to reading a minimum of 15 pages of a business book every business day and I typically went through on the weekends. So I was constantly learning constantly growing and that’s where I am today I’m continually learning about the brain and about human behavior because if I stop doing that I’m not growing and if I’m not growing then I’m not providing value to my clients and I’m not in a good position to support them. 

 

Jim Rembach:     It’s an important point that you’re making here because one of the things that I always talk about is that oftentimes we expect people to coach the ones that report to them. For me I’m like, okay are they being coached? Because there’s no way that a coach can coach if they’re not being coached themselves.

 

Hamish Knox:     Amen. We say if you don’t own it you can’t coach it. 

 

Jim Rembach:     So when you start looking at—some of the things on the back of the book where you’re talking about or overcoming some issues being able to put an accountability of program in place, what would be one of the big ones that see is an issue?

 

Hamish Knox:     Number one is the leader is not willing to be held accountable. This is right away pushback that we’ll get is—they may not say it in so many words but you can see them thinking, oh oh if I have to hold my team accountable that means I have to be accountable, they just don’t want that. Humans are animals and animals have no capacity to process language all they can do is observe behavior and so if what’s coming out of the leaders mouth is accountability and accountability and accountability but their behavior is in congruent they’re telling their team everything they need to know about accountability through their behavior and then when we get involved and they’re all frustrated about like, why is my team not accountable? Well, I bet if I followed that leader around for half a day at the maximum I would actually see that they’re teaching their people through their behavior instead of through their works. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I love that you said that because I had the opportunity to have a conversation with somebody and they were a senior level leader one of their managers came in and was talking about people not engaging in doing certain things and that you know what we should put in penalties in place for them not doing these things. And he goes what do I tell a person like that? I said you looking straight in the eye and say, yeah, let’s start with you. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Amen, I love it I love it. 

 

Jim Rembach:     If you’re not willing to have that inflicted upon you do you want to do it to others?

 

Hamish Knox:     Exactly. Another one Jim that just popped into my head as you were saying that is not creating clarity. A leader’s number-one job is to create clarity. When we look at this accountability program and we talked earlier about the why and all that we need to be completely clear with what are the expectations and what exactly are we holding you accountable to and then we got to talk about the big seat, what are the consequences? By the way, when everybody hears the word consequence in business they hear you’re fired and that’s not true there’s got to be what we call the consequence ladder. Everyone’s going to screw up we’re all human beings we’re all going to fall off every now and then so as a leader again a support tool we have to have a way of picking that person back. But at the same time if they’re not willing to be accountable we also have to have a way of eventually moving them on if they’re not going to be supportive of the accountability culture that we’re building in your organization.

 

Jim Rembach:     I’m glad you said that too because I start talking and share that consequences are really everything/ Consequences are the consequences of doing all of those things and having promotions, commissions, 

Opportunities those are positive consequences. We have consequences of apathy nothing happens negative consequences but unfortunately much like accountability we think of a consequences as oh! No. 

 

Hamish Knox:     Exactly, exactly. I’m really glad that you bought up positive consequences first because we forget that the word consequence is neutral it’s the result of doing something or not doing something. If I don’t do the activities that need to get me to my sales target I have a negative if do the activities that get me to my sales target I will have a positive consequence. The word consequence ends up being neutral but most people layer it as negative.

 

Jim Rembach:     That’s so true. So, you got a lot of things going on—two young kids trying to graze them right have the business be successful promote the book which is huge I’m sure be a good husband’s on there as well. But when you start looking at all these goals what’s one of them?

 

Hamish Knox:     My goal ties into both it’s to have a completely self-multiplying company. Which means that whether I’m here or not the business not only survives but it’s thrives and grows which will give me the freedom to spend time with my family as I choose. If I want to pick up my girls every Friday from school I can do that. If one of them gets into a traveling arts organization or sport team and they’ve got a tournament hundreds of miles away I can just pick up and go to that because I can support them and then of course I can spend some quality time with my wife growing as a couple together when I see fit as opposed to saying, well honey or well kids dad can’t do that because he’s got to fill in whatever blank that is that day. 

 

Jim Rembach:     And Fast Leader legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor. 

 

An even better place to work is an easy-to-use solution that gives you a continuous diagnostic on employee engagement along with integrated activities that will improve employee engagement and leadership skills in everyone. Using this award winning solutions guarantee to create motivated, productive and loyal employees who have great work relationships with our colleagues and your customers. To learn more about an even better place to work visit beyondmorale.com/better. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright here we go Fast Leader legion it’s time with for the Hump Day Hoedown. Okay, Hamish, the Hump Day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Hamish Knox are you ready to hoedown? 

 

Hamish Knox:     Yahoo. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

 

Hamish Knox:     Two things: making decisions based on my ego and saying yes to too many things.

 

Jim Rembach:     What is the best leadership advice you have ever received?

 

Hamish Knox:     Take care of yourself first which sounds selfish but I have worked with too many leaders who do not take care of themselves first and then they can’t support their people. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

Hamish Knox:     When I do something I’m a hundred and ten percent committed. My best man at my wedding the night before my wedding we were sitting around having a drink and he said, you know what? I’ve been a lot of weddings and every groom that I’ve ever met is terrified of what’s going to happen the next day you’re the only one who I’ve met who’s completely 100% committed to what’s going to happen tomorrow. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business our life? 

 

Hamish Knox:     Creating clarity, speaking plainly and making sure that everyone’s on the same page with what has to be done by when before we go our separate ways. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What would be one book that you’d recommend to our legion, it could be from any genre and of course we’re going to put a link to Accountability the Sandler Way on your show notes page as well. 

 

Hamish Knox:      Awesome. It’s a book I discovered a couple years ago it’s called, Profit Firsts by a guy named Michael Makalowitz I’m a systems and processes this guy Sandler’s about systems and processes Profit First, is a system for managing profit in your business. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay, Fast Leader legion you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/hamishknox. Okay, Hamish this is my last Hump Day Hoedown question: Imagine you were given the opportunity go back to the age of 25. And you’ve been given the chance to take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you but you can’t take everything you can only choose one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why? 

 

Hamish Knox:      It ties in my—the answer about the book is taking the knowledge of finances. That was never anything that was discussed when I was growing up and I had a lot of scripting and head trash around how money worked. So if I could go back and take the knowledge that I’ve gained or about money in the last few years I would be much farther ahead both personally and professionally in terms of my finances not that I’m doing bad but I would be farther ahead. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Hamish, it was an honor to spend time with you today can you please share with the Fast Leader Legion how they can connect with you? 

 

Hamish Knox:      Thanks for asking, Jim, so you can connect with me via Twitter and Instagram @sandlerhamish. I’m on

LinkedIn I published an article every Sunday. And you can also find me via sandler.com. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Hamish Knox, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps links from every show special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster. 

 

END OF AUDIO 

 

[/expand]

 

David Hiatt | From the Board Room to the Living Room

198: David Hiatt: At what point am I going to take myself seriously

David Hiatt Show Notes Page

David Hiatt had friends that convinced him to enter a speech contest. He did it half way but soon realized that when he got into it, he was really good at affecting people and helping them to do better in their life. That’s when he decided to do something of excellence.

David was born and raised in the suburbs of Dayton, Ohio. Being a native Ohioan, it was only natural for him to get his Communications Degree from The Ohio State University. The next step was to get married and have two sons. When the marriage ended David went to United Theological Seminary, earning a Master’s Degree in Communications.

David comes from an interesting family. Mom and Dad divorced when he was 5 years of age. The interesting part is that Dad raised him, while marrying and divorcing 3 more times before David graduated from college. Mom moved South and married twice more.  This dynamic made for many siblings in the process.

With this family dynamic, David learned early how to adapt and deal with other people.  This naturally led him to pursue his education in Communication (and a minor in Psychology). Getting along and communicating with a wide range of people was natural for him.

David’s first job was in sales where he sold life insurance, then moving on to general insurance, and eventually selling radio advertising. It was at that point when he got into training other people in sales and communications. This became a skill set – he was very good in getting people to grow and develop. For the past 25 years he has made it his mission to help as many people as possible to communicate in more effective ways in sales, business, and their personal lives.

David is the International Training Director, Global Accounts at Sandler Training and author of From the Board Room to the Living Room: Communicate with Skill for Positive Outcomes where he captures the essence of the powerful communication tactics he trains business leaders to deploy in sales and negotiation settings.

David has lived in Las Vegas for the past 15 years.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to David Hiatt of @sandlertraining to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow – Click to Tweet 

“Just because we say it, they don’t necessarily hear what we thought we said.” – Click to Tweet  

“When we are all born, we do not have any beliefs.” – Click to Tweet  

“Part of the yelling that goes on in today’s communication world is the fact that people don’t feel that they’re being heard.” – Click to Tweet  

“Everything that we are fighting for has been something that we throughout our life have acquired as something we hold near and dear.” – Click to Tweet  

“How many of your beliefs are really yours based on your experience versus coming from other folks?” – Click to Tweet  

“If you can acknowledge their belief, they feel heard and that’s going to give you a much better chance to have a dialogue with them.” – Click to Tweet  

“Knowing better is not necessarily doing better.” – Click to Tweet  

“The only reason I could write the book is because I messed it up most of the time.” – Click to Tweet  

“There’s a point where you have to decide what you’re going to do when you grow up.” – Click to Tweet  

“At what point am I going to take myself seriously and really grow up and do something of excellence?” – Click to Tweet  

“We never do it alone.” – Click to Tweet  

Hump to Get Over

David Hiatt had friends that convinced him to enter a speech contest. He did it half way but soon realized that when he got into it, he was really good at affecting people and helping them to do better in their life. That’s when he decided to do something of excellence.

Advice for others

Behave your way to success.

Holding him back from being an even better leader

Complacency

Best Leadership Advice

Prior planning prevents poor performance.

Secret to Success

Letting other people help.

Best tools in business or life

Listening to understand rather than listening to respond.

Recommended Reading

FROM THE BOARD ROOM TO THE LIVING ROOM : Communicate with Skill for Positive Outcomes

Thinking, Fast and Slow

Contacting David Hiatt

Email: dhiatt [at] sandler.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-hiatt-9484b88/

Resources and Show Mentions

Call Center Coach

Customer Experience Speaker

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

198: David Hiatt: At what point am I going to take myself seriously

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader podcast, where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

 

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies that is the blueprint that develops high-performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen so go to callcentercoach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path e-book now.

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay Fast Leader legion today I’m excited because I have somebody on the show today who’s going to help us with something that is fundamental to our success. David Hyatt was born and raised in the suburbs of Dayton, Ohio and being a native Ohioan it was only natural for him to get his communications degree from the Ohio State University. The next step was to get married and have two sons. When the marriage ended David went to United Theological Seminary earning a master’s degree in communications. David comes from an interesting family mom and dad divorced when he was five years of age the interesting part is that dad raised him while marrying and divorcing three more times before David graduated from college mom moved south and married twice more.

 

This dynamic made for many siblings in the process. With this family dynamic David learned early how to adapt and deal with other people. This naturally led him to pursue his education in communication and a minor in psychology getting along with and communicating with a wide range of people was natural for him. David’s first job was in sales where he sold life insurance. Then moving on to general insurance and eventually selling radio advertising. It was at that point when he got into training other people in sales and communications. This became a skill set and he was very good at it and getting people to grow and develop. For the past 25 years he has made it his mission to help as many people as possible to communicate in more effective ways in sales, business and their personal lives. David is the 

International training director for global accounts at Sandler training and author of, From the Boardroom to the living-room Communicate with skill for Positive Outcomes.  Where he captures the essence of powerful communication tactics he trains business leaders to deploy in sales and negotiation settings. David has lived in Las Vegas for the past 15 years he and his wife will be celebrating their 25th wedding anniversary this September. David Hiatt, are you ready to help us get over the hump? 

 

David Hiatt:     I am ready Jim when you are. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I’m glad you’re here. Now given my legion a little bit about you but can you share what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better. 

 

David Hiatt:     I think my current passion has stayed pretty steady over the last 25 years and it is basically to help people communicate more effectively. Because I have found that most of our issues most of our problems stem from a lack of communication which means a lack of understanding a lack of clarity of what the other person’s message mean or doesn’t mean. So that passion is still alive and still on fire for me. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Well and even going through the book—I started really getting the sense that—it’s almost like learning music to me, and I’m not a musician, but to me it’s like, okay, if I want it to sound good I need to know these certain elements in order to be able to put it all together to make something that is pleasing. 

 

David Hiatt:     That is absolutely a good analogy. I also missed the music Jim in my family everyone else has it I think I caught that communication bug. The idea that just because we say it they don’t necessarily hear what we thought we said. I learned that very early with the multiple situations I found myself in with the different dynamics that were constantly going on. So by accident I really needed to make sure I understood what the direction was so that I could then make sure I accomplished whatever they were asking me to do or whatever I needed to be done. So I didn’t know what that really was until I got into the communication field and realized it was just basically clarifying the message the other person is sending. 

 

Jim Rembach:     And also the whole psychology component when you overlay that to me I think that’s a powerful combination. Even for me when I have had the opportunity to have a good sales experience, I did not even think about customer service but even a good sales experience often times I’ll ask folks what was their major? What are their experiences? And I especially like to do it to the young folks. I have found a really odd number of folks that say, oh, well I majored in business and minored in psychology.

 

David Hiatt:     Yeah, and it was really by accident that I got the minor in psychology it’s simply because I took one of those courses and liked it I thought it was very fascinating and interesting it’s amazing how it has served me over the years. It reminds me of taking typing class in high school little did I know how that skill set would come handy in the future with all our computerization and things. And it’s really the same thing with that communication model and things. It’s amazing how that psychology has just in so many ways helped me understand number one me and what’s going on in my head but number two to give people a break to realize that from a psychological perspective we’re not all in the same places. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I can see by looking at the way that you’ve laid out the book those two things have manifests themselves. Like in chapter one you talked about the need, so we have to identify the importance and be able to talk about working towards progress. You talk about the skills the art of mutual agreement, questions and listening and talking, the attitude, emotional involvement, the outcomes, growing together, keep talking and one part that I really liked because to me I want to find out why you made the appendix but it’s the art of de-escalation. So why was that in the appendix?

 

David Hiatt:     Well that was interesting. I had finished the book without that and as you know the process of writing a book is if you’re going to do it well there’s a team effort in it and so once I pretty much had those outlined and had the content there as we were talking with some of the other folks as were editing and looking at things someone just happen to say, how do you really de-escalate? Because there’s a couple stories in there about some situations that could have escalated into some real conflict but how do you really do it? I think that last one was sort of just a question that just grew in to that appendix. I sort of shared that with you, can you put that on the paper and let’s add that in? I think there was a story that was involved in that appendix of how to de-escalate and the person involved but it’s a way you know what as soon as people read that they’ll know who I am. I’ve set three hats of them reading the book are slim to none (7:22 inaudible) so don’t worry about it. 

 

Jim Rembach:     That’s a good point. There’s also some really interesting points for me you can call them aha or epiphanies whatever but in one part you talked about the acknowledging of the opinion of others. And you talked about acknowledging the opinion of others doesn’t have to do anything with the fact that you agree with them. Because we all have opinions based on what we believe to be true and that opinions is not right or wrong they’re just that. And opinions are formed when information gets filtered through a person’s belief systems and experiences and I think that’s really key to remember. We all don’t have those same experiences and so when people are engaged in conversation that’s really the back story that we’re all kind of getting visualizations into. 

 

David Hiatt:     I think part of the yelling that goes on so much in today’s quote communication world is the fact that people don’t feel that they’re being heard. Now I’m not talking about the people that really aren’t communicating well what they’re saying is nothing, really there’s nothing there to be heard it’s just an emotional outburst, I’m talking about the sincere people that truly have an opinion and it’s thought out it’s based on their experiences. Because we’re all born Jim we do not have any beliefs so everything that we are championing that we’re out there fighting for has been something that we throughout our life have acquired as something that we hold near and dear. 

 

I always urge people to do a belief inventory. How many of your beliefs are really yours based on your experience and what to be true versus coming from other folks? In other words—mom, dad, grandpa the coach and you pick that up and it morphed into something that when you really think about it isn’t really helping you. But if you can allow people to acknowledge that belief and actually listen to it don’t argue with it just acknowledge a belief they feel heard and that’s going to give you a much better chance to have a dialogue with them about perhaps changing that belief or at least being open-minded that what I’m trying to share could be an option or could be true. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I think that’s a really important point. And you actually have in here a couple examples on things that people can do in order to help with that de-escalation or maybe even cause a pause or a break. I remember my wife and will be celebrating our 25th anniversary this fall and when we first had gotten married I remember she would not allow me to leave a conversation that we were having that got heated and I’m like, look if you don’t let me step away we’re really going to have some fireworks. I grew up with three brothers just outside of Chicago, on the south side, I said if you want to go toe-to-toe I can do that and I’ll rip you apart. Not meaning that I want to do that it’s just that I can because that’s kind of where I came from. 

 

David Hiatt:     Yeah. Was there any de-escalation tactic in there that jumped out at you as you were looking through it? 

 

Jim Rembach:     Well I like that you have several things that are examples when you talk talking about the heat of the moment. You have several things that could be said like one here, I really think I need to need a little bit of time to process what you’ve said. If it’s alright with you I’m just going to take a break and I will re-engage with you tomorrow in the morning so that we can work this out. So you give kind of a framework and understanding to talk about—first of all you need to recognize the emotional component but then you also need to have some type of commitment on when you’re going to come back and convene so you’re sitting in expectation. 

 

David Hiatt:     I’m not just walking away Jim and saying the heck with it. I’m saying right now I am not—my dedication the book she’s put up with all this. I remember when we were first together and something that happened there was a conflict and she just came at me with wild emotional I remember she what she said, I don’t do this. If this is the kind of relationship you’re expecting then I’m not the guy you want to continue dating because that’s just not going to accomplish anything. So we sort of set that up early. That doesn’t mean we never had any conflicts or we never had any arguments. A good example was a couple weeks ago she said to me, we need to have a conversation about this. And I was not in the frame of mind to have that conversation and because there was going to have an emotions attached to it and I just simply said, you know what? I’m just not in a place where that conversation makes sense right now. Can we put it off and till I get back from the trip? Now of course when you get back from the trip guess what’s happened? It’s not near the issue that it was at the moment when she was upset about it. So now what happens is the conversation either doesn’t even happen because they’re no longer needed or it’s a much gentler conversation any conflict that would have come from it is gone. 

 

Jim Rembach:     You’ve also established the agreement that if you say that she needs to respect that and that’s eventually where my wife and I have got to it’s like, look you’ve got to give me the opportunity to step away. There was a study that I was reading—because one of the things that you didn’t cover here and I’d be interesting to know if there’s some research that’s been done in this talking about how emotions affect IQ. Because the emotional centers of your brain are going to hijack your IQ and so therefore how many times have we all gotten into heated conversations and later on you’re like, gosh, I forgot to say this and it’s because that happens in your brain. 

 

David Hiatt:     It happens all the time. I know at some point you’re probably going to ask me the question what kind of book would I recommend? Since you’ve asked the question there’s a great book by a guy named Daniel Kahneman and it’s called, Thinking Fast and Slow. It’s a bit of a tough read but it really answers your question about what part of the brain, I allude to it briefly, in the book and that one’s example of Thinking Fast and Slow. When you think fast that’s usually your amygdala it’s that fight-or-flight stuff emotions go as opposed to your slower thinking pre-cortex brain that allows you to think things through better make better decisions and better choices. That book is an awesome book and it cites all kinds of research on exactly what you’re talking about. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Well, in addition to that there’s also an age thing associated that in regards to that prefrontal cortex and when it actually gets developed and it’s not until our 20’s and stuff so when you’re having those arguments with those teenagers you’re like, I don’t even know how you could be thinking that? It’s because it hasn’t been developed yet. 

 

David Hiatt:     Their brains not wired to do anything else.

 

Jim Rembach:     Exactly. There’s another part and I think you kind of touched on this a moment ago but to me I see that this particular tool could be valuable in a lot of different ways and it’s called the interpersonal relationship developer. To me one of the things I think we fail to realize is that when we’ve worked with somebody for quite a while it’s really almost like being they’re family member and we can essentially r get to relax with certain things but not go to the point to where we are creating a deeper connection and bond with them. So it’s kind of like, we’re partway there, and to me it’s a lot of vulnerability that could take place with that. But this interpersonal relationship developer I think would be an awesome joint tool to work with somebody on to create—for me I’d like to take this with my wife. 

 

David Hiatt:     We actually put that in there to do some things but as we did it I gave that circle example of each of us being our own individual circles and how as you build that relationship. It’s not the extinguishing of one of the circles that does not create a relationship it’s the growing of each individual. And as you overlap in your relationship as long as you’re both growing the relationship is growing. The problem becomes when one person grows the other person necessarily doesn’t and considers their whole being as part of the other person’s or the other person continues to grow and that common relationship overlap gets smaller and smaller in which now it makes the communication more difficult it makes the understanding more difficult because you’re no longer sharing the common things. When you come back and you each share the day and that overlap grows when one person just waits for the other person, because that’s their everything relationships have a real tough time growing. 

 

Jim Rembach:     That’s a good point. So what we’re talking about here both in the board room and in the living room is just riddled with emotion and passion. And one of the things that we look forward on the show to help us focus in the right direction or quotes. Is there a quote or two that you like to do you can share? 

 

David Hiatt:     Well, yeah, there is. I’m going to attribute it to a minister that I knew way back in my 20s. She looked at me and she was just as sincere as could be and she just said, David, now that you know better act like it. Because knowing better is not necessarily doing better. And so that quote has just stuck with me for years and years and years as I learned things and I find myself falling short. I’ve written this book you always like to write the book because I messed it up most the time as I went through it. Now that I know better act like it. 

 

Jim Rembach:     I like that quote. 

 

David Hiatt:     That’s a huge one for me. 

 

Jim Rembach:     That’s a really good quote, I like that I’m going to have to borrow that one myself. I know when you started talking about that—time with the family, upbringing, talking about teaching other people I find that one of the reasons why I became certified in emotional intelligence is to be better at some of the things that you’re writing about in this book because I find that going back and having reflection upon my own life it’s like, well this is where I struggled. So I think a lot of times where we struggle is often times where we want to, first of all, have our self get better at that. And then also we want others to not feel the same pain and we have to help them. But we have to go through humps in order to figure those things out and I’m sure there’s several that you’ve been over that you could probably share. But is there one that kind of stands out to you that will help us?  

 

David Hiatt:     There’s so many and as you go through your life. I think there was a point where you have to decide what you’re going to do when you grow up. Okay, I didn’t really get to that point really until my late 30’s because I did a lot of different jobs lot of it sales jobs a lot of different things that’s where I really got into the training and doing the different things. But I think the real hump for me was when some friends convinced me to enter this speaking contest the speech contest, if you’re a good speaker you got to do that thing. And I sort of did it halfway, frank of my buddies wanted me to, but when I got it I thought, at what point am I going to take myself seriously and really grow up and do something of excellence? And so I thought, you know what? This is going to be my touch stone I’m going to do this and see what really happens. 

 

And it was tough because that’s the first time I really sat down and planned out what I was going to do where I really sat down and practiced it beyond just the normal yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it I’m just going to wing it. I really had to sit down and take a skill assessment, can I really do this? How am I going to do this? And go through complete it and do it. It was an arduous kind of process because once you won at the local you had to go to the regional or the state to the national and I ended up winning the national competition, as many years ago, but that’s the hump of taking it seriously. I got to grow up I’ve got to get serious about what I’m doing I was a late bloomer in that right. That that happened early it still didn’t really affect me until I decided to grow up, which was about 10 years later, and I thought, what am I really good at? Well, I’m really good at affecting people to deliver a message that can help them do better in their life to feel better in their life and that’s what I got real serious. For the last 25 years it’s it has been my passion absolutely. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Thanks for sharing that to me I can find myself in that story quite a bit as well talking about that taking a while to figure things out and where you need to focus and making it some commitment having some strategy around it and being able to execute tactically and I always say that of the one of the quotes that I like is that the Lord didn’t give us youth and wisdom at the same time. So we have to go through several of these humps in order to kind of figure these things out so that’s why we like sharing them on the show and thanks for doing that. So when you start talking about where you are right now and I know at one time you had your own Sandler franchise and now you’re moving and you’re working with Global and you’re trying to of course help others with this you have the book but when you start thinking about all these goals that you have, what’s one of them?

 

David Hiatt:     Well, one of them is to touch as many people not just business people but as many people as I possibly can in a positive way. Again, positive outcomes and communication is probably the one way. If you can get your communication skills down if you can get more positive outcomes even it means getting a no, you’re not the one for me or no you’re not the product for me that’s still a win so it’s still a positive outcomes with we can get to the positive outcomes quicker in our relationships then my belief is people end up doing better. 

 

Jim Rembach:     And the Fast Leader Legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor. 

 

Need a powerful and entertaining way to ignite your next conference, retreat or team building session? My keynotes don’t include magic but they do have the power to help your attendees take a leap forward by putting emotional intelligence into their employee-engagement, customer-engagement and customer centric leadership practices. So bring the infotainment creativity the Fast Leader show to your next event and I’ll help your attendees get over the hump now. Go to beyondmorale.com/speaking to learn more. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright, here we go Fast Leader Legion it’s time for the Hump day Hoedown. Okay, David, the Hump day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. So I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. David Hiatt, are you ready to hoedown? 

 

David Hiatt:     I’m ready. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Alright. What do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today? 

 

David Hiatt:     Complacency. I’m living a pretty darn good life doing what I love doing. I’ve just had some conversations with some of my Sandler cohorts to look at some other directions that can motivate me but I think what’s really been an issue for the last probably 12 months is complacency. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What is the best leadership advice you have ever received? 

 

David Hiatt:     Best leadership advice I ever received was from a football coach named Lou Holtz. He was speaking at an event, a luncheon event, and that’s when I first heard that prior planning prevents poor performance. And I’m telling you that has stuck with me my whole life, it’s so true.

Jim Rembach:     What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

David Hiatt:     Letting other people help because. We can never do it alone. None of us get through this alone and when we really can step back and allow other people to truly help us, because they want to, I think that’s huge. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life? 

 

David Hiatt:     Listening to understand rather than listening to respond. 

 

Jim Rembach:     What is one book, you actually mentioned that book let’s mention it again. 

 

David Hiatt:     I did. It was, Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman. 

 

Jim Rembach:     Okay Fast Leader Legion you could find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/davidhiatt, and of course we’ll put a link to, From the Boardroom to the Living Room, on the show notes page as well.  Okay David, this is my last hump day hoedown question. Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25, and you’ve been given the opportunity to take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you but you can’t take everything back you can only choose one. So what skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

 

David Hiatt:     Well, I’ve got it narrowed down to two. First would be listen to clarify. The second one would be behave my way to success. They might be related but I think I’m going to go with behave my way to success figuring out what I really needed to do. It goes part of that plan that all those things all fit together they’re not the vacuum. But I think early especially in my 20s as I was dabbling in different things and different careers and doing things I think just doing more of the right behavior in the right amounts at the right time and for the right reasons. 

 

Jim Rembach:     David, it was an honor to spend time with you today can you please share with the Fast Leader Legion how they can connect with you? 

 

David Hiatt:     Pretty simple, you can dehiatt@sandler.com, it’s probably the easiest way. 

 

Jim Rembach:     David Hiatt, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks for helping us get over the hump? Woot! Woot!

 

Thank you for joining me on the fast leader show today. For recaps, links from every show special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already, head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster.

 

END OF AUDIO

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David Mattson - The Road to Excellence

176: Dave Mattson: I’m forever grateful for my road to excellence

Dave Mattson Show Notes Page

Dave Mattson had the opportunity to buy into an established business but was unable to secure the funding he needed. After being rejected by several bankers and taking a hit to his self-esteem, he thought all was lost. But without his knowledge, Dave’s parents put everything they had on the line for him.

Dave Mattson grew up in Simsbury, Connecticut, born into a single-income family as the eldest of four boys.  The boys were raised to believe that they could have anything their hearts desired – as long as they paid for it.

As a result, Dave grew up as a worker – shoveling snow in the winter; delivering papers and mowing lawns in the summer.  As he grew older, he hired on to pick tobacco, since that was the only job he could find that 14-year-olds could legally be hired for.

In high school Dave worked three jobs and eventually started his own painting company, which he managed for 6 years and eventually sold when he graduated from the University of Connecticut.

During this period of his life, Dave learned the value of hard work, how to deal with people from all backgrounds, the importance of talking about and dealing with money, and the trials and tribulations of being an entrepreneur.

Dave has taken this experience and learned how to connect the dots in a conversation, and developed the ability to relate the unrelated.  As an introvert, he doesn’t have the need to dominate conversations, choosing instead to listen more than he speaks. This has served him well in both management and selling.

He brought his extraordinary work ethic to Sandler. He is known as an over-preparer, and has developed a knack for understanding people, and knowing what they need to become successful.  Over the years, he has learned that people love to edit, not create – so he shows up with ideas and encourages others to beat them up and make them better, while simultaneously gaining buy-in.

Mattson joined Sandler in 1988, learning under his mentor and company founder, Dave Sandler.  Since that time, he has authored several programs, started the firm’s global consulting and training group, created its national branding program, and risen from COO, to partner, to owner of Sandler (2012).  He has expanded Sandler into 31 countries, with over 250 training centers.

He tries to impart to everyone he meets that hard work pays off, it’s important to be transparent in every facet of your life, and the key to success to getting people to work with you, and not for you.

Dave is the author of The Road to Excellence: 6 Leadership Strategies to Build a Bulletproof Business and currently resides in Phoenix, Maryland (a suburb of Baltimore), with his wife and their five children.  He was a founding member of Susie’s Cause, in support of the fight against colon cancer, and enjoys fishing, time at the beach, and travelling with his family.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to @Dave_Mattson to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShow Click to Tweet 

“You can’t live on yesterday’s successes.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet  

“You’ve got to look forward but learn from the past.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“You cannot be impatient, sit back for a second and look at the forest and not the trees.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“Be objective and question yourself at all times.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“Always figure out how to become better.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“Technique by itself will only get you so far.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“People who work for us want to be clear on the expectations given to them.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“If you’re going to lead, lead with what you consider to be excellent.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“We have to really coach and train our people.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“Coaching really helps people become self-sufficient and self-aware.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“People react to those that brought a plan.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“The way people see themselves conceptually is directly proportioned to how they operate in their role.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“You have to look at yourself with a healthy self-esteem, otherwise your roles will self-adjust.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“I had to become a process animal to survive.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“I look at process as a playbook, you do it naturally.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“87% percent of executives can retire this year.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

“If you’re not going to change, you’re going to get killed.” -Dave Mattson Click to Tweet 

Hump to Get Over

Dave Mattson had the opportunity to buy into an established business but was unable to secure the funding he needed. After being rejected by several bankers and taking a hit to his self-esteem, he thought all was lost. But without his knowledge, Dave’s parents put everything they had on the line for him.

Advice for others

Confidence and conviction

Holding him back from being an even better leader

Continually looking backwards. It’s holding us back a little more than I think it should.

Best Leadership Advice

Inclusion. Make sure that people are clear, their on-board and you give them the ability to succeed.

Secret to Success

I’m always worried.

Best tools that helps in Business or Life

I create playbooks for everything we do.

Recommended Reading

The Road to Excellence: 6 Leadership Strategies to Build a Bulletproof Business

You Can’t Teach a Kid to Ride a Bike at a Seminar, 2nd Edition: Sandler Training’s 7-Step System for Successful Selling

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Revised Edition

Contacting David Mattson

Email: dmattson[@]sandler.com

website: https://www.sandler.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-mattson-99538612/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dave_Mattson

Resources and Show Mentions

Call Center Coach

An Even Better Place to Work

 

Show Transcript: 

[expand title=”Click to access edited transcript”]

176: Dave Mattson: I’m forever grateful for my road to excellence

 

Intro: Welcome to the Fast Leader Podcast, where we explore convenient yet effective shortcuts that will help you get ahead and move forward faster by becoming a better leader. And now here’s your host, customer and employee engagement expert and certified emotional intelligence practitioner, Jim Rembach.

 

Call center coach develops and unites the next generation of call center leaders. Through our e-learning and community individuals gain knowledge and skills in the six core competencies that is the blueprint that develops high-performing call center leaders. Successful supervisors do not just happen so go to callcentercoach.com to learn more about enrollment and download your copy of the Supervisor Success Path e-book now.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Fast Leader legion today I’m excited because I have somebody on the show today who it’s really going to help us move in the right direction faster. Dave Mattson grew up in Simsbury, Connecticut born into a single income family as the eldest of four boys. The boys were raised to believe that they could have anything their heart’s desire as long as they paid for it. As a result Dave grew up as a worker shoveling snow in the winter delivering papers and mowing lawns in the summer. As he grew older he hired on to pick tobacco since that was the only job that any fourteen-year-old could legally be hired for. In high school Dave worked three jobs and eventually started his own painting company which he managed for six years and eventually sold. 

 

When he graduated from the University of Connecticut during his period of life they’ve learned the value of hard work, how to deal with people from all backgrounds, the importance of talking about and dealing with money and the trials and tribulations of being an entrepreneur. Dave has taken this experience and learned how to connect the dots in a conversation and develop the ability to relate the unrelated. As an introvert he doesn’t have the need to dominate conversations choosing instead to listen more than he speaks this has served him well in both management and selling. He brought his extraordinary work ethic to Sandler he is known as an over prepare and has developed a knack for understanding people and knowing what they need to become successful. 

 

Over the years he has learned that people love to edit not create so he shows up with ideas and encourages others to beat them up and make them better while simultaneously gaining buy-in. Mattson joined Sandler in 1988 learning under his mentor and company founder David Sandler since that time he has authored several programs started the firm’s global consulting and training company created its national branding program and risen from CEO o to partner to owner of Sandler in 2012. He has expanded Sandler into 31 countries and over 250 training centers. He tries to impart to everyone he meets that hard work pays off it’s important to be transparent in every facet of your life and the key to success is getting people to work with you not for you.  Dave currently resides in Phoenix, Maryland a suburb of Baltimore with his wife and their five children. He was a founding member of Susie’s Cause in supporting the fight against colon cancer and enjoys fishing time at the beach and traveling with his family. Dave Mattson are you ready to help us get over the hump?

 

Dave Mattson:     Absolutely, thanks for having me. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I’m glad you’re here. Now, I’ve given my legion a little bit about you but can you tell us what your current passion is so that we can get to know you even better. 

 

Dave Mattson:     Sure. My current passion outside of work is fly-fishing. I’ve always loved to fly fish I can do it when I want don’t necessarily need a big crowd so it’s one of those things where I can make a decision, hey let’s go. To be honest it’s one of those things where I know there’s always fish there and I’m the variable I’m the one to see they’re not using the right fly not doing the right float not doing this there’s so many variables much like golf that you’ve got to get everything just right to get it done and you’re never great at it it’s so you’re always constantly striving to become better and better at that particular sport, so that’s what I enjoy. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Listening to you say that and also having the opportunity to look over your book, The Road to Excellence Six Leadership Strategies to Build a Bulletproof Business, I start seeing a lot of similarities in what you just talked about on the fly-fishing puzzle the fly-fishing problem-solving when it comes to building a business finding the right thing not being aware of where the fish are it’s a whole lot of guessing and testing and validating and I mean a whole lot of things that are going on there. 

 

Dave Mattson:     That’s true if you think about both of them the similarities for me are you can go into a new place you can’t live on yesterday’s successes because that was at a different spot a different time so you’ve got to look forward but learn from the past. You also cannot be impatient you have to figure out what’s going on sit back for a second look at the forest not the trees and say, okay what is going on here? And really be objective and question yourself at all times which is what I do anyways I’m always questioning myself which has gotten me this far and I’m not really going to change that. But I think when it comes to your point when it comes to fishing and that I think it is true I think we always have to always figure out how to become better always know that’s something in my control that it’s me I can’t do that what was in the environment and what was me it’s this what can I do so I step up and don’t play the victim and take control and figure out what I can do with the environment that I’ve been given. 

 

Jim Rembach:   I also started thinking about—okay, so Sandler is primarily known for sales selling. I’ve had Josh Seibert on the show Brian Sullivan on the show you on the show and however you guys talk so much more about the leadership aspect of the business more so than you talk about the actual sales outcome, why is that? 

 

Dave Mattson:     Obviously, we are known for sales tactics. People say Sandler they’ll say, Oh awesome, awesome sales training, I think when it comes to the leadership obviously that’s the topic of the new book, but I also think that you have to control yourself. Even if you want to be a professional salesperson and you want to go above and beyond the pack you want to be in that top 20% you’ve got three areas that you need to focus in on which is attitudes, behaviors and technique. Technique’s Sandler awesome at but technique by itself is only going to get you so far if you want to sustain that upward hockey stick growth pattern you’ve got to have the mindset to get yourself there where you’re not fear fearing success you’re not fearing failure you’ve got the confidence and conviction and then you really had to become a behaviorist. I think all that self-leadership stuff you incorporated is really important if you’re going to excel whether it’s in sales leadership, leadership and or sales in general so I think they’re all combined.

 

Jim Rembach:   That’s a good point. When you start talking about the roadmap to organizational excellence you talked about six P’s and I don’t really want to go into those on the show people can get the book and get into those because there’s a couple other points of this book that I really want to dig a little bit deeper into. Just for sake of mentioning the six PS are planning, positions, people, processes, perform matrix and passion, however, you talk about an excellence process to me that really stood out and you talked about that you must set your own measurable performance benchmarks and find a way to hold yourself accountable for attaining them and then not doing so is a major blind spot you talked a lot about blind spots in the book and that essentially leads up to having the six piece put in place so that you can become more clear and have a clearer roadway, know where you’re going. When you start talking about the excellence process one of the things that kind of has always bothered me is the difference between accountability and ownership and I think too many people want to hold other people accountable in a negative context instead of saying, you know what? I want you to own this and how can I enable you to own it? So in the excellence process insight, is that born out of that or did it come from somewhere else? 

 

Dave Mattson:     Well, I think to your point one, I think that we as leaders we want a culture of accountability and the people who work for us want to be able to be clear on the expectations given to them they want to know absolutely what are my guardrails so I can operate within? What do I have the right to make decisions on? And what can 

I—and that clarity to be honest Jim normally doesn’t exist. In my mind I’ve given it to you you’re sitting back not wondering, hey, can I move forward as if you don’t want to pop your head up too high because maybe you get whacked depending on the company culture. So there’s a million things to this, mutual mystification, that are going on. But if I set back one more step because you’ve said two things is I have to be congruent myself. For me to say you should be on time you should be doing this and I’m showing up a half hour late to meetings I’ve missed most of my deadlines but because on the owner I get a get out of jail card free that is garbage that’s like telling your kids not to smoke because that’s what you believe in and you’re in your third cigar at dinner it’s just incongruent. 

Jim Rembach:   That’s so true especially with the generation that we have today they’ve got to see it in you before they try to instill a pin in themselves.

 

Dave Mattson:    Absolutely. You’re going to lead with what you consider to be excellent not what you say. 

 

Jim Rembach:   Another thing that I really liked is you talked about the key attributes of effective performance that leads into that whole ownership and I want you to move things forward and I think there’s a whole lot of these blind-spot things in here as far as avoiding them. As you said tied to the overall vision and organization tied to the top three key priorities established for every function in the organization documented in job description that goes on and on there’s several things when people find the book that I think are going to be elements that kind of what you just said a moment ago. People really don’t know what the expectation is and they don’t know the performance outcome that has to be in place in order for that success to occur.

 

Dave Mattson:    Right. I think one of the best things that David Sandler, and I had the honor to work with him very closely from 1988 when I came to home office to 1995 when he had passed, he really managed me using three piece which is potency, protection, permission. He gave me permission to act as if, once I understood the guardrails that I could operate with it, David—I give you permission to just do your thing you may make some bad decisions I get all that but I will protect you on the decisions that you make within the guardrails and I will protect you and when you need to come tell me the truth when we’re off track. Most people they’re so afraid they don’t say anything they spend half their life hiding the mess they could have just said, hey David here’s the situation what should I be doing I think I’m way over my head on this one. That open relationship has now really carried itself to what we teach and how we run the business. 

 

When he did that to me I believe that I took projects and initiatives that he gave me that I probably would have taken it to a six and say, okay now David Sandler here it is you take it over the finish line, no way I blew. If he expected a hundred I give it back to him at one hundred twenty because I knew exactly what was supposed to have been done I validate and what he wanted me to do I set it back to him made sure I understood it I created a road map I had benchmarks I checked along the way and it was empowering and I really just stepped up to the plate. Now we had other people, Jim, that didn’t step up to the plate they were still operating on—I don’t know what to do, hesitancy, no confidence no conviction but they don’t own the company now so it just really offered me a chance just step it up and I always, always remember that and that’s what we do now, 

 

Jim Rembach:   I think what you just described right there to me is a great framework for people who you want to become high performers oftentimes they may not even see themselves but giving them that type of framework and autonomy could really be a key differentiator. I think that’s lacking in a lot of organizations today we see across the board drops in creative thinking drops in innovation drops in R&D ROI it’s just going on and on and on because that framework is lacking, 

 

Dave Mattson:   Absolutely. I think if we even go further than that once we’ve—let’s take any initiative that an owner or a leader says, hey this is where we’re going, how many times do they really rally the troops and over-communicate that? I know most of the clients that I’ll have will send out a memo and they’ll do a company meeting, this is where we’re headed but Jim you and I know. For me I do videos internally this is all internal stuff I’ll do videos I do town hall meetings I’ll send podcasts I’ve got people in the field who are doing what I want them to do and I use them as examples because we’ve got so many different people in the workforce I have to send that message through so many different modalities and because it takes me 18 months to socialize an idea I think most leaders stop around a month or two and say, well they got it. What do you want me to do? I sent the memo everyone understands it but that’s a huge mistake. I think if I tie it back to allowing me to be self-sufficient which is the ultimate goal of a leader, I think that’s true as well when you give me a project if I don’t know the guardrails and I don’t know what I’m able to do. I think what happens is as a leader we think about this 24/7 for 30 days. I have a 15-minute conversation with you and I think that you’re on the same page as I am you’re not you’re in the same page I was 29 days ago I’m so far ahead of you but I forget that and that’s really a big mistake. 

 

Jim Rembach:       That’s the big curse of knowledge that typically he talk about. 

 

Dave Mattson:     It is.

 

Jim Rembach:       So another thing that I really liked in the book is you talk about the ten commandments of acceleration for business leaders and I would like to spend a moment or two on these  ten and I don’t want to read them all but if you start talking about these ten when you start talking about things that are like critical, I tell my kids about the ten commandments honor thy father and mother for me that’s one of the most important, which one of these ten do you think really stands out as something that’s key.

 

Dave Mattson:     It’s different for lots of different groups. I have to say, you know your audience better, if you had to pick one for the leaders that are in your audience, what’s one pops out for you? Because I just interested in it because it’s so different depending on where you are in the world and where you are in your business. What do you think pops out? 

 

Jim Rembach:       Gosh, there’s really a couple. For me, I think mentoring and coaching others to create passion in themselves is really something that is a huge gap.

 

Dave Mattson:     I do too. Listen, coaching is one of those things where you should spend 45percent of your time in a daily function. We have four hats on any leader we’re switching these hats a million times during the day. I’ve got a supervision hat, I’ve got a coaching hat, I’ve got a training hat, I have a mentoring hat. Most of us live in supervision because we think that’s what management is and maybe that’s what management was to you and that’s the other problem leaders aren’t really trained. Sales leadership as an example is the least trained group of people in our company which is shocking because they’re required to bring in the revenue for our company, nothing happens unless sales leadership does their job they are responsible for a hundred percent of that revenue we don’t train them. 

 

What typically happens is, Jim, I’m looking around my sales manager disappears and I say, Oh, my gosh, I’m going to have to do their job and my job this is insane and so I look for my top stud or stud at and I say, do you know what? I’ve had my eye in you, Jim, I’ve always said that you’re the future leader I’d like you to run this group now and just keep doing what you do, Jim, I want you just to replicate yourself and life will be good for all of us and I talked you into this position and then I say, thank goodness now Jim’s off and running. Well, that’s not really what happens we really have to coach and train our people. Most people think coaching is, you coming to me and say, Hey, Dave, what should I do? Jim do this, this, this and this. Okay, well, that doesn’t necessarily work. First of all, you only do five percent of what I said and if it goes well you take credit it goes poorly it’s my fault. So I think coaching really helps people become self-sufficient, self-aware and that’s not me telling you something it’s you self-discovering therefore you will do it again on your own in the future. You know all the sayings, teach them how to fish all that stuff. 

 

But I think the aha moments that come from coaching when you act like a doctor and ask the right questions and let people self- discover but with a formula, I think that’s really special. We’ve gotten ten sales behaviors that I think any sales person should be able to do and those things regardless—and Jim for anyone that’s listening it’s really starts up on account development and goes all the way through the sales process all the way to account management and you can figure that out for any one of the listeners businesses. But if you’re coaching to something specific and asking you to rate yourself on each of those areas that I think are important for you to become great at in my business and because if you think you’re a three and I think you’re a three we should work on that if I think you’re a three and you’re nine on, let’s say account development we’ve got a disconnect, so we should be talking about that. 

 

And then the other thing is to tie in, what happens if we improve? So let’s use account development, if you and I both agree that you’re a three out of ten in that area and I say Jim what happens if we got you to seven because I noticed you want to go from a three to a seven. Dave, here’s what would happen, I’ve got X amount of people in my funnel, X amount of people who would come up back end. And I said, which would mean X amount of commission for me which then I can spend money on my kid’s education and now I’ve tied in my corporate goal to your goal which is a huge blind spot and then we say, okay, let’s get working on this thing. And now you’re motivated versus me picking—Jim, you’re no good at account development let’s talk about that today, and now here comes the PowerPoint with the death march. That’s not really what should happen but it’s what does happen.

 

Jim Rembach:   I think you just explained the huge difference between what is a good coach and an effective coach and what isn’t.

 

Dave Mattson:     Absolutely.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Looking through the book going through and talking about all these blind spots and the discussion that we had before we even got on the show, I there’s a lot of quotes that actually drive you and help you point north. Is there one or two of those that you can share? 

 

Dave Mattson:     The quotes that I like, let’s see—if you don’t have a plan by default you’ll fall into somebody else’s plan. I really do believe that that was an Eden to me by Sandler. He would always say, David what’s your plan? And I was always reactive I would come and just hear what you had to say and then react off of that. I learned something very interesting as he was molding me into becoming a leader. He said, watch what happens when people show up with a plan, documents, like here’s how I think we should attack it. What I realized is people react to those who brought a plan. It’s not that hey, we’re going to put your stuff away we react to it we edit it we make it better we socialize it and from that day forward to say that’s kind of cool. So, if you show up with your idea first thing you should realize is 90% of the population shows up with nothing. So, your idea by default is something that we’re going to be working on which is huge as a leader you should always realize that. 

 

And the second thing is, if I don’t have a plan on where we want to go as a leader what we’d like to do by default I’m going to follow somebody else’s and it could be a VP of Sales it could be this, I’m not saying it’s bad because you want other people to create the plan of action as well I get all that, but from an organizational standpoint I think that that is huge. The other quote for me is: Who you R is not who you I, and R stands for role, Jim, I stands for identity. I think people get confused, as a human I have a million, I’m a parent, I’m a brother, I’m a son, I’m a husband, I fly fish we talked about that, I’m an owner, and the list of things that I do goes on as you get older that list just expands. I is identity and so what that means is, I may have all these roles—like even today my role I’m on a podcast role I’m the brand of Sandler. I’m going to go downstairs and I’ve got 16 other different roles so there’s a million things going on. But if I do poorly in one of them, which is bound to happen I mean let’s face it, so let’s say that I did a bad job today parenting I made a mistake once again so what happens, does that mean I’m a complete failure in all the other things that I’m doing? No, it doesn’t. It just means that for that particular role I was no good at it today and I need to improve. That sounds so simple but think about a salesperson on our team they get rejected at nine o’clock do they just write that off and say, you know what? That’s one of 30 and a thing, I’ve learned from that I’m moving on. Or do they—oh, no, that was my biggest account here we go I’m getting killed I hate this, my pricing models no good I got no support and here comes the blame game and they absolutely get sucked down. What happens as you know is the way people see themselves conceptually is directly proportionate to how they operate in their role. And that’s why from a sales perspective and an owner perspective you really do need to be an I10 ten, which is self-concept. You may not going to make the right decisions all the time I get it but you have to look at yourself with a healthy self-esteem otherwise your roles will self-adjust. 

 

Let’s do social, pick somebody, Mike Tyson he was an R10 he was a machine at his day, a machine, people were frightened. And then what happens? He imploded because he didn’t see his self-concept as an R10. He was a kid that shouldn’t have made it that far and he’d look at me, my gosh, and all of a sudden he went from 200 million down to bankrupt because he just self-adjusted. You can look at movie star after movie star it happens all the time but it doesn’t just happen in sports and in Hollywood it happens just—look down the hallway people are adjusting all the time. As a leader you’ve had to say to yourself, that person should be operating at 80% or higher I mean they have it what’s going on? But they have other issues. So they’re looking at failure and success from a very myopic standpoint you really have to step back and say, look I’ve got a million things going on it goes up and down but here’s how I see myself. Conceptually I am bulletproof, I’m going to learn to muse, I’m arrogant not arrogant and so I think that’s the two that stick out for me.

 

Jim Rembach:   Gosh! As you were talking I started thinking so much about absent like you were talking about the ebbs and flows and why it’s so important to have somebody as the good coach, and they’re hard to find, I have that coach in order to help your downs cycles be as short as they possibly can because they’re going to happen, they’re going to happen. Okay, talking about down cycles and being able to move up and get over them we talked about getting over a humps on the show. You shared with me a couple stories of times that you had to get over the hump and we kind of honed in on one because it had a lot of dynamics associated with it both personal and professional. Can you please share us that time when you’ve had to get over the hump? 

 

Dave Mattson:     Sure. For me, I think there’s two major speed bumps in my life. Of course there’s million of them, but the ones that really shaped me more than others the first one was, I’ve been in Sandler for three years maybe four and David and I got along very well I was his protégé I was doing all the things I hit all the benchmarks he asked me to be his partner–fast forward here—and he said: “David, here’s what it’s going to buy 25% of the company we’d like to have you part of the business.” Now, I’m the only non-family member in the business so here we go. I go and try to find money, well, my first aha was hey, Sandler, look at Sandler the bankers should just look at it and give me the money this is like a no-brainer. I don’t understand, but here they’re looking at me as a 28-year old saying, no, I don’t think so. First of all you don’t know a hundred percent so we have no collateral, blah, blah, blah and I went from banker to banker to banker and got killed. Now, think about where I was I was a stud looking for money I was feeling like a dud pretty quickly, we’re going back to our previous conversation, by itself this team is like in the toilet, and so what do I do? And I happen to just mention something at a Thanksgiving thing I said, Yeah, this is really hard I thought this was going to be simple, now months into it I’m trying to do my job I’ve got a million little fear doubt worry things picking up my brain and my parents without my knowledge put up their homes, as they had a vacation home and a primary home and they put their retirement money on the line as a collateral for the bank above and beyond what I had to get me the loan to buy Sandler and so that was a huge hump. I would have never been here if it wasn’t for that I didn’t ask them and to be honest Jim if my kids asked me to put everything on the line I’m not sure I would do it. Not that I don’t love them I don’t know why they did that and I’m forever grateful they saw in me I guess that, hey I had that. 

 

So that was one and if I fast forward the same type of thing popped up, I’m running the business now I’m the VP of Sales I only owned 25% I’m running national accounts so I’m zipping around closing big deals and I found myself without much discussion as a single parent, boom, like overnight, I have a three year old and a six year old. I was a single parent trying to figure out—wait a minute now, first, that I actually caused this problem because I was too focused on the business side that I caused, which I would deny of course because that’s just protection which sure is a lie. Then I say well, what am I going to do? Because the business can’t survive without me, oh, my gosh, all roads lead to David. But you know what happened? That was the biggest aha moment that I had actually because I realized that I had to scale the business and all roads could not leave to me because that was a huge mistake. It was great for my ego when I was juggling all these balls and I was doing it successfully but the fact of the matter is you can’t triple your business under that model. And so that happened and I just became a process animal because there’s not enough hours in the day and what I had to do is I learn how to recipe everything. 

 

This is what I’m doing Tuesdays and I just categorized and became an absolute process animal to survive and that has really gone throughout the whole business. And so I look at younger people who step up and want to do X Y & Z and I see myself in them, I see people struggling around but on the other side though, Jim, when people say—well, I’ve got so many things going on I can’t do that. Well, are you not willing or you’re not able? It’s your choice, I’m not forcing you to do one or the other but you’re going to have to figure out—I don’t want you to sacrifice your family for sure because that’s super important at the same time you got to figure out and have that work-life balance but still get your stuff done because it’s not unreasonable you have to become process oriented or at least some system for yourself for you to survive and for you to really thrive that’s the bottom line. Those are two I think that pop out for me. 

 

Going back to the whole –would I do it as a parent? That’s a great question. I’m not there yet and I guess we’ll see what happens. As far the whole process thing I think you’re so dead on in a lot of different ways. And also that process thing—well, let me say, I have a good friend of mine who works with a lot of organizations in a legacy type of format meaning you have owner—this isn’t like millions of people right now have businesses, small businesses small medium-sized businesses, that they have no family to leave it to and so for them they have to look at putting their businesses up for sale. For many of these organizations they’ve operated for so long in a format where it’s just like well—hey, so-and-so knows how to do that. They haven’t been able to scale and they now can’t sell the business because people look at it and they’re like—where’s your processes? How can anybody step in and be able to take over and do this particular job? The typical human reaction is, well I’m protecting my space and my territory and you can’t allow that to happen because it’s a detriment to that individual because they’re not developing other people they’re not developing the business and then overall the business as a whole. 

 

 It’s not even true it’s a fantasy people freaked out process—I’m not a process person, oh I’m going to spend 18 hours—I don’t look at process as compliance I look at process as a playbook. You do it naturally you always want to figure out what’s the best way to do X and it could be the best way to remote there on could be the best way to get to work we all do it we do it all day long. How do we get better at this? How do we do this? We create these play books mentally for ourselves on everything that we do but when you ask people to write it down, oh, wait a minute you’re forcing me micromanagement this is not the culture that I want, I think it’s foolish. I think you can have both I don’t look at it as a compliance issue I look at it as a self-survival thrive issue because to your point when you such-and-such can do it. Well, guess what 87 percent of executives can retire this year not saying they are but they can. And so when such-and-such can do it well such-and-such isn’t here anymore they just left so what am I doing? There is no such-and-such there’s a gaping hole. Regardless of its process or a client relationship or anything I go through my company and say, if that person left tomorrow what would I be doing? How am I reacting versus getting—Dave, we appreciate the last 20 years we’ve decided to move on. What? And now I’m scrambling, so that’s just how I look at it.

 

Jim Rembach:   That’s a great point. I also refer to as it the hit by bus theory. 

 

Dave Mattson:     Exactly. It’s realistic. 

 

 Jim Rembach:   We’ve talked about a lot of things going on. We’ve talked about the fly-fishing, talked about building the business, you’ve got the book—there’s a whole lot of things that are happening, but if you were to talk about one goal that you have, what would that one goal be?

 

Dave Mattson:     Transform our company. We are a 50-year old company we’ve won tons of awards we’re primarily facilitator left we’ve (inaudible 31:34) tone our 65 training centers so people come to us or we go to you. I have five kids Jim, they’re not learning the way that I’m learning the way that you’re learning. So, my personal goal is to really shift the business to take care of different groups. I consume content differently and I have to make sure that the kids that are coming up, like my children who are in college and out, the new people in the workforce consume content differently the Millennials are consuming content differently so for us to shift it’s been huge especially when I’m 54 years old.

 

If you put your content online there’s no way people are going to pay you for it then you’ve just shot yourself in the foot, what are you doing? But YouTube changed everything. The younger generation has grown up in a completely different environment I know I sound like my parent, because I’m sure they said the same thing about us, but if you’re not going to change you’re going to get killed and so for us we have shifted everything over to platforms where people can access thousands of podcasts and videos we’ve got tools now and so it’s really done a lot of things for us on the unattended consequences that really catapulted us forward in a lot of different ways. The other goal which is tied in, Jim, we were really bad at tracking our clients. 

 

We have millions of X clients if I walk through an airport the Sandler shirt on people will yell Sandler terms. They don’t know who I am so they just love this stuff but I don’t know who any of them are and that is really—if you look at the other technology companies that are thriving whether you look at LinkedIn or Salesforce, they know who their ecosystem is and they nurture their ecosystem and we just historically never did that. We are scrambling to go find who they are because I also know that the people that we train fifteen years ago they’re all leadership roles they all love us. And so that’s really one of the goals is to get ourselves into a new place in time and then go find our past client base through technology because I don’t know who they are and get them back into our ecosystem.

 

Jim Rembach:   And the Fast Leader Legion wishes you the very best. Now before we move on let’s get a quick word from our sponsor. 

 

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Jim Rembach:     Alright, here we go Fast Leader legion it’s time for the Hump Day Hoedown. Okay, Dave, the Hump Day Hoedown is a part of our show where you give us good insights fast. I’m going to ask you several questions and your job is to give us a robust yet rapid responses that are going to help us move onward and upward faster. Dave Mattson, are you ready to hoedown?

 

Dave Mattson:  Of course.   

 

Jim Rembach:   Alright. What do you think is holding you back from being an even better leader today?

 

Dave Mattson:  I think continually looking backwards, Jim, and making sure that everybody is okay for the ride moving forward so I spend a lot of time building that bridge. I think that probably holds us back as a company a little more than it should but I there’s this equal—just give pull thing, I don’t know what’s the best way to do it so, if I have to look back I’d say probably do a lot more pulling. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What is the best leadership advice do you have ever received?

 

Dave Mattson: The best leadership advice is inclusion. Don’t breach your own press and really make sure that the people are clear they’re on board and you give them the ability to succeed. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What is one of your secrets that you believe contributes to your success?

 

Dave Mattson. I’m always worried. To me I’m always looking for the reason why this isn’t going to work and then I’m pleasantly surprised when it doesn’t versus I’ve over–I’ve said it’s going to work and I haven’t really done that. So I think If I’m constantly thinking about things I’m constantly worried—entrepreneurial horror—you’ll have it that really what’s helped me get this far and I’ve watched a lot of people who have left that mentality get killed. 

 

Jim Rembach:   What do you feel is one of your best tools that helps you lead in business or life?

 

Jim Knight:   Play book. I create play books for everything that we do which is capturing best practices and that way I can replicate it for a lot of things that I don’t do all the time, let say, but also I can give that playbook to my staff and they can increase their efficiency very, very quickly. 

 

Jim Rembach:      What would be one book that you’d recommend to our listeners, it could be from any genre, and of course, we’re going to put a link to The Road to Excellence on our show notes page as well. 

 

Dave Mattson:     The book that that changed my life was, “You Can’t Teach a Kid How to Ride a Bike at Summer that was just a killer for me. Because it was written not in a sales environment but really in a social environment and then it bridged over to a sales environment. I also, The Power of Influence by Robert CalDini, I thought that was an awesome book as well, there’s a million of them there but I tend to gravitate towards the psychological portion of what people do and why they do it because I can attribute that to anything that I do.

 

Jim Rembach:   Okay, Fast Leader legion you can find links to that and other bonus information from today’s show by going to fastleader.net/DavidMattson—we’re going to do David Mattson for his show notes page. Okay, Dave this is my last Hump day hoedown question: Imagine you were given the opportunity to go back to the age of 25 and you’ve been given the opportunity to take the knowledge and skills that you have now back with you but you can’t take everything back you can only choose one. What skill or piece of knowledge would you take back with you and why?

 

Dave Mattson:     I think I would take back confidence and conviction. I think the lessons is important as you learn them if you’re willing to keep an open mind. I think those lessons would come even if I was 25 but I think the confidence and conviction that you have at 50, if I could bring that back at 25 then I would accelerate all my successes and failures. But I also wouldn’t second guess—I would have could have should have—that would have disappeared because as you become more and more comfortable in your skin whenever that is for you I think if I could have that at 25, even though I was 25 going on 40 to be honest I think that would probably be the best thing that I could take back in time.

 

Jim Rembach:   Dave, it was an honor to spend time with you today can you please share with the Fast Leader legion how they can connect with you?

 

Dave Mattson:     Sure, they can go to sandler.com, I tell you what Jim, they could go to sandler.com find a local training center and just call up and crash a class. Crash a class go see what you love whether it’s management or sales sit in me and just say, hey we listen to Dave and Jim and so they’re there. You can go to sandler.com or dmattson@sandler.com

 

Jim Rembach:   Dave Mattson, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom the Fast Leader legion honors you and thanks you for helping us get over the hump. Woot! Woot! 

 

Thank you for joining me on the Fast Leader show today. For recaps, links from every show, special offers and access to download and subscribe, if you haven’t already. Head on over the fastleader.net so we can help you move onward and upward faster. 

 

END OF AUDIO 

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