Dan Hill Show Notes Page

Dan Hill is a facial decoder that has experienced times when he’s not been able to practice emotional intelligence as much as he would like. But Dan is a master facial coder and uses his skills to detect opportunities to exceed customer expectations, build rapid rapport, and to see opportunities that most people are blind to.

Born in Minot, North Dakota, and raised mostly in East Dakota (more commonly known as Minnesota), Dan’s childhood had one major, unique disruptive event. At age 6, the family (including his mom and sister) all moved to Italy because his dad had received an assignment from the 3M Company to manage a film processing plant along the Italian Riviera. Suddenly, Dan found himself in 1st grade in an Italian fishing village – and not knowing the language – could only participate in the math lessons. All of his other time went to reading the body language of his new classmates and teacher, and trying to get “the lay of the land.”

A year and a half later, as the family was heading to England to get a boat home to America came a 2nd, ultimately significant event: in Amsterdam, Dan saw the paintings of Rembrandt – which spurred his interest in emotions, personalities, and expressions. It’s on our faces, after all, that we best reveal our feelings, and eventually, Dan would be an art history minor in college at St. Olaf College before going on to receive a Ph.D. in English from Rutgers University.

Ever since his early adventures in Europe, Dan has been an explorer – curious about learning more about most everything. Nothing remains more fascinating, however, than human nature. The 3rd big event in Dan’s life, and his career, came in 1998 when Dan was working at a consulting company focused on the customer experience, trying to ghost-write a book for the company’s president, and somebody, his boss, knew at IBM sent over an article about the breakthroughs in brain science and their implications for business. The underlying truth – about 95% of our mental activity is subconscious, and our reactions to the world are primarily sensory and emotive (not rational).

Armed with that insight, Dan decided to launch his own company, Sensory Logic, that pioneered the use in business of the scientific tool called facial coding to capture and quantify customers’ emotional experiences. His company has gone on to do work for over 50% of the world’s top 100 business-to-consumer companies, and he’s also applied the tool in presidential politics and pro sports.

Dan is also the author of Famous Faces Decoded: A Guidebook for Reading Others. His contribution to society and the business world is bringing the role of emotions front and center. Since Dan’s pioneering efforts, major players like Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon have followed his lead. The Economist magazine has described the result of combining AI with the automation of facial coding as the emerging “facial-industrial complex.”

Nowadays, Dan lives in alternating seasons in St. Paul, MN, and Palm Desert, CA, with his wife, a retired clothes designer. When not working, you’re likely to find him either on a tennis court or watching a movie for fun.

Tweetable Quotes and Mentions

Listen to Dan Hill to get over the hump on the @FastLeaderShowClick to Tweet

“If you read the face of someone, there’s so much information there.” – Click to Tweet

“The most vital 25 squares inches of territory in the world is in the middle of the face.” – Click to Tweet

“Emotions are really contagious. The emotion we give off, we’re going to get back.” – Click to Tweet

“If you make a certain expression over and, over it eventually etches itself into your face.” – Click to Tweet

“There are seven emotions in facial coding; there of them are approach emotions.” – Click to Tweet

“People who are happy tend to get to superior solutions more quickly.” – Click to Tweet

“Trust is the emotion of business and contempt is its opposite.” – Click to Tweet

“Actions speak louder than words and quick micro-expressions in the face are action.” – Click to Tweet

“They’ve got speaking points as they come in to be hired, but are the feeling points matching up?” – Click to Tweet

“We expect more from a leader than them just getting to stay in their comfort zone.” – Click to Tweet

“Having a sense of humor makes you more human.” – Click to Tweet

“Don’t imagine you’re going to accomplish everything; just get to the essentials.” – Click to Tweet

Hump to Get Over

Dan Hill is a facial decoder that has experienced times when he’s not been able to practice emotional intelligence as much as he would like. But Dan is a master facial coder and uses his skills to detect opportunities to exceed customer expectations, build rapid rapport, and to see opportunities that most people are blind to.

Advice for others

Control the discourse. You only get ahead in life if you keep track of what you want to accomplish.

Holding him back from being an even better leader

I’m not the best listener.

Best Leadership Advice

You have to bring people with you, don’t give them a sense that it’s unfair.

Secret to Success

Humor. I love the good joke that works for someone.

Best tools in business or life

Keep it simple, simple is smart.

Recommended Reading

Famous Faces Decoded: A Guidebook for Reading Others

Mrs. Bridge

Contacting Dan Hill

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-hill-emotionswizard/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/EmotionsWizard

Website: https://www.sensorylogic.com/

Resources

Call Center Coach – https://www.callcentercoach.com

Show Transcript

Click to access edited transcript

Unedited Transcript

Jim Rembach (00:00):

Okay, fast leader Legion. Today I’m excited because I have somebody on the show today who’s going to help all of us advance a very, very important skill that is becoming more important as days go by and that’s our emotional intelligence.

Jim Rembach (00:51):

Dan Hill was born in Minot, North Dakota and raised mostly in East Dakota, more commonly known as Minnesota. Dan’s childhood had one major unique disruptive event at age six the family, including his mom and sister all moved to Italy because his dad had received an assignment from the three M company to manage a film processing plant along the Italian Riviera. Suddenly Dan found himself in first grade in an Italian fishing village and not knowing the language could only participate in the math lessons and all his other time went to reading the body of language of his new classmates and teacher and trying to get the lay of the land. A year and a half later as the family was headed to England to get a boat home to America came a second ultimately significant event in Amsterdam. Dan saw the paintings of Rembrandt, which spurred his interest in emotions, personalities and expressions.

Jim Rembach (01:49):

It’s on our faces after all that we best reveal our feelings and eventually Dan would be an art history minor in college at St. Olaf College before going on to receive a PhD in English from Rutgers university. Ever since his early adventures in Europe, Dan has been an Explorer. Curious about learning more and most everything. Nothing remains more fascinating. However, then human nature, the third big event in Dan’s life and his career came in 1998 when Dan was working at a consulting company focused on the customer experience, trying to ghost write a book for the company’s president and somebody his boss knew at IBM sent over an article about the breakthroughs in brain science and their implications for business. The underlying truth, about 95% of our mental activity is subconscious and our reactions to the world are primarily sensory and emotive. They’re not rational.

Jim Rembach (02:42):

Armed with that insight, Dan decided to launch his own company sensory logic that pioneered the use of in business of the scientific tool called facial coding to capture and quantify customer’s emotional experiences. His company has gone on to do work for over 50% of the world’s top 100 business to consumer companies and he’s also applied the tool in presidential politics and pro sports. Dan’s contribution to society and the business world is bringing the role of emotions front and center. Since Dan’s pioneering efforts, major players like Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon have followed his lead. The economist magazine has described the result of combining AI with the automation of facial coding as the emerging facial industrial complex. Nowadays, Dan lives in alternating seasons and Saint Paul, Minnesota and Palm desert, California with his wife Karen Bernthal, a retired clothes designer. When not working, you’re likely to find him either on a tennis court or watching a movie for fun. Dan Hill, are you ready to help us get over the hump?

Dan Hill (03:54):

Absolutely. Nice to meet you, Jim. Oh, thank you.

Jim Rembach (03:56):

Dan. You’ve actually authored several books. Uh, but the book that we’re going to be talking about today kind of brings together a lot of the, the research and findings that you have. And I love the way that you did it. It’s called famous faces decoded. So Dan, tell us about your current passion and how we can get to know you even better.

Dan Hill (04:12):

Sure. Well, with this book, I really wanted to give it something that made it relatable for people. So I wanted celebrity stories. So I took Hollywood stars, I took music stars, uh, certainly business leaders and politicians, media types, uh, anything that people can relate to where there was a backstory because that makes it much more human and much more accessible. So I’m trying to cover what are the triggers of emotions? What do they mean? How do they show in the face and what in the world can you do about it all to plug it back in to make both your career and your personal life, you know, more pleasant, more effective that make you a better Mitch. Well, I better wouldn’t

Jim Rembach (04:49):

say when you start talking about, you know, the, the skill that you have currently and continuously built over the past, you know, two plus decades, uh, is becoming in more need and demand today than it has ever before. Now, what are the forces

Dan Hill (05:05):

that are causing that to happen? Well, I think one is screen time. We are so caught up in looking at the text messages and thumbing this and that back to somebody. We have lost track of the fact that we are, everything in business is people to people. And that means you have to understand who’s there. We, we desperately sent all these emoticons to correct the miscomprehension is the miscommunication that happens because of what we just typed on this device. Uh, I remember being at media and McDonald’s and the woman said, Oh, just a second. My boss in Germany just misunderstood what I just typed. I have to desperately send another message. If you read the face of someone, there’s so much information there. Someone has said that the most vital 25 square inches of territory in the world is in the middle of the face.

Dan Hill (05:49):

It is, you know, right around our eyes, our nose, her mouth, and the first person who got this is probably the most brilliant person who ever lived, da Vinci, Leonardo DaVinci. If you look at his notebooks, what you’ll discover is that he looked at human anatomy. He came to understand how we express our emotions. So in all the other brilliant things he did, it took another 200 years for anyone to be as good as DaVinci was and understanding emotions as displayed in our faces. That’s why MonaLisa is such a fascinating painting. The same thing that goes into the painting you should apply to your daily life. It can be in a call center contact. It could be at a business meeting with your boss. It can be going home and talking to your spouse afterwards, but get yourself with a higher emotional IQ and you’re going to be better off.

Jim Rembach (06:37):

Well, I think it’s also important here for us to really kind of put a little bit more of a focus in on, you know, the discipline that we’re talking about here. So this falls under emotional intelligence and there’s two things that you talk about in the book is that we have social intelligence and then we have our personal intelligence. A part of this is some of that self-discovery component, you know, how are we expressing ourselves and then how to read that in others. But it’s also important to note that like you had mentioned, is that a lot of this is just subconscious response. So somebody may not even have cognitively understood that their face displayed something. Is that correct?

Dan Hill (07:14):

Oh, it’s absolutely correct. Emotions are really contagious. And the emotion we give off, we’re going to get back. It’s, it’s tit for tat and a whole bunch of situations in life. And that better you can pick up on those dynamics, the better off you’re going to be. And just as a person, we tend to have patterns. Everything in life has patterns. We have what I call signature expressions. There is a wonderful comment from the writer, George Orwell who said, by the age of 50, a man has the face he deserves because we have muscle memory. And if you make a certain expression over and over, it eventually etches itself into your face and that’s going to change the dynamic of who you’re interacting with. If you tend to anger, if you’re a hothead, it’s going to show up and that’s going to have some implications for how your conversation goes.

Jim Rembach (08:01):

You know, as you were saying that, it kind of brings me to this, um, um, thing that I found on, on the internet and has been shared probably tens of thousands of times where they talk about this resting, you know, BITC H face. Right? And it’s true. I mean it’s, you know, like sometimes we look at people, it’s like, you know, why are you angry at me? It’s like they’re not even thinking about you. Right.

Dan Hill (08:24):

Absolutely. And part of that comes how do you have really attractive women and they have this resting BITC H face because they don’t have to use their social skills. It’s almost as if they are the, I guess I’ll say gender female equivalent of a really rich guy if I’ve got a lot of money or really great looks that I’ve got something in the bank and maybe I’m signaling in a way that I don’t really have to interact with you in a decent way, in a, in a fair level playing field sort of way that I’m above you. And so that means I can go to anger, can go to contempt or I can go to no emotion at all because I’m not going to make the effort to interact with you.

Jim Rembach (09:01):

Well. And when we start thinking about that in today’s world where it’s an experience based economy, we really have to connect with customers, colleagues, all of those things that can have some serious impact in our ability to, you know, Excel to positions of greater responsibility, uh, to, you know, that can impact our income. You know, we talk about emotional intelligence affecting, you know, a significant portion of our ability to, to experience success. And monetary is right with it. But one of the things that we don’t talk about is this variability of emotional intelligence. And to me this is a core one because it’s kind of that first impression, gold mine or tragedy.

Dan Hill (09:43):

Oh absolutely. Just last night I had dinner with Joe pine. He’s the coauthor of the experience economy. So there’s no way in business you’re always going to have an experience. It can be good, it can be bad, it could be a different, and what are you going to have with an experience? You’re going to have emotions. It’s a story that’s unfolding and as Hollywood knows and he’s story, it’s going to involve emotion. And what’s the emotional pager on the back side? One of my favorite comments about business is that there are two emotions in business as in life. One is dollars and one is emotions. And if you take care of the second one, the first one’s going to look a whole lot better.

Jim Rembach (10:20):

Most definitely. Okay, so now let’s talk about the specifics of being able to do this type of detection and interpretation and analysis. So you have identified seven core emotions, but then you also talk about four forms per emotion. And all of this goes into 23 different expressions. So if you could kind of break this down for us.

Dan Hill (10:40):

Sure. So there are seven emotions in facial coding. Three of them are approach emotions. So that means that I’m moving toward my target, my object, the positive one is happiness. I am going to hug, I’m going to embrace, I’m going to be open to consideration. If I’m in a contact center, customer contact center, and I’m talking to someone. And in the future and why this is relevant is because we’re going to have technology that, uh, labels us, not just hear their voice but see their face and they can see our face. And so all that telepathy or empathy, all of that contagion is going on emotionally. So it’s really important to know that happiness is not a trivial emotion. People who are happy tend to get to superior solutions and more quickly, they are really good at brainstorming. So if I’ve got a customer problem and I’m coming across as a happy camper, it’s probably not just that I’m coming across with a fake smile.

Dan Hill (11:34):

It means that I am really expansive and trying to figure out how to connect with you and get to a better solution. That’s fabulous. Now the other heavy hint or emotion is anger because happiness and anger together are about 70% of everyone’s emoting on average, 70% so the other five that we can cover our, only the other 30% what’s the essence of anger to hit? So happiness, to hug, anger to hit. So you have somebody who’s calling you ans customer, they’re calling you because they’re not happy. So now we’re quite possibly in the realm of anger. They could be confused about how your company’s offer works, the kind of service they got or fail to get a why. So there could be confusion. It could be resistance like you did this to me, I am not accepting that kind of treatment. It could be that they don’t see a path to progress because anger can also mean we feel like we are, we’re losing control of our situation and that there are barriers to our progress and we get angrier to the extent that we think the barriers are unfair.

Dan Hill (12:36):

So anytime you start with this kind of thing, you have to say they’ve got happiness, anger, do I have some other emotion? And then let’s say with anger, because it’s so likely to be important. What we’re talking about, four forms of anger. One is super intense anger. This is like the dog where you took away its bone and it’s growling at you. And so a really reliable way to see this is that the mouth, the lips will tighten together. The mouth will be really tight and there’ll be a bolt below the middle of the lower lip. A telltale bolts sticking out. That is an angry person and the first thing you’re going to have to do in business as in life is try to bring the anger quotient down. Try to bring some calm to this situation. Otherwise you’ve got a nuke reactor that’s about to blow.

Dan Hill (13:20):

It’s three mile Island all over again, so that’s the most intense version. There’s another version where they eyes narrow and the eyebrows come down and they’re kind of like giving you the hard snake eyes. Look, that’s not quite as bad as what I just gave you, but it’s also worrisome. The next one I think in business you can work with this is concentration. The eyebrows will come together, the lips will come together, but lightly there’s no bulge below the middle of the lower lip. This is someone that’s a reasonable person. They are concentrating on their words, they’re trying to take in your message. They’re trying to figure out how to make this into a win win. You can work with that person. Your best thing that you can hope for if you’re in customer contact role is what I call the golden blend. This is the last of the four forms of anger, a mixture of happiness and anger. So they’re expansive, they’re receptive, you can talk to the person, but they also have a purpose. They are signaling at certain moments with that anger that they do indeed want to get to an outcome and let’s get there sooner than later if you don’t mind.

Jim Rembach (14:22):

You know, as you’re talking, I’m sitting there and thinking about some of the things that were, we talk about in the contact center space in regards to speech analytics, voice biometrics and, well to me when we start talking about this, that our, our next frontier is going to be the whole, you know, facial decoding, biometric. Absolutely. And then thinking about the whole ability to infuse AI into that where it’s actually being able to read faster than we can and it’s giving us cues.

Dan Hill (14:48):

Yeah, no, I think what’s going to happen in the future is you’re going to eventually not just the ability to see their face and them to see your face. You’re going to have a little output if you’re working at one of these centers and you’re going to actually have an identified for you in real time what emotion they’re feeling. But where that still leaves you is the ability to have emotional intelligence and say, ah, it’s anger and anger means these sorts of things. You know, I don’t have control. I’m not making progress. Uh, I’ve resisted to what you’re doing. I confused. Or even I’m resentful. You’ve offended me in some way. Uh, you’ve, you’ve challenged my value system, so you got five probably really good possibilities. Which one is it that helps explain the anger that’s just been identified for you or that you picked up yourself through the voice, through the face and the software.

Dan Hill (15:38):

Once we have that opportunity. So how can I then plug that into my solution? If it’s confusion you believe because the eyebrows are pinching together and lowering, that just means you guys get back to clarity. You have to say a question to them like what is it here that you really don’t understand? If you think it’s lack of progress, maybe it’s what one thing here do you think is really holding this up the most or what do you think is unfair here and that’s going to give you the lead in to get to a solution that’s going to take that anger away from them. Well I start thinking about this. I mean I started, I started looking at your work in this and you’ve actually been awarded several patents. I mean do these patents that you’ve been awarded, will they assist and support what we’re talking about here and making it to where I can now start doing this at scale.

Dan Hill (16:27):

I can start interpreting it, scale. I can start, you know, really connecting, you know, at scale. Yes. And they also involve some extra permutations. Now let’s switch over to happiness cause that’s the other vital emotion that happens so often. But there are different levels of happiness. So joy is when the muscle around the eye relaxes and you get the twinkle in the eye. It’s called a true smile because you can’t fake it. And if you can bring the customer to that moment, that’s golden because we’ll pay good money to be extremely happy. As Woody Allen said, happiness makes up in height, what it lacks in length. So if we can get that high elation moment, great. The smile you have to worry about isn’t really a smile. It is the begrudging little smile to half smile. It’s really brief on the face. And that means something like that’s the worst joke I ever heard, but at least you tried to humor me. So you might say, ah, I’ve got, I’m smiling now. No, there’s guys kind of on the window ledge and they could turn back and flip into anger or some other negative emotion really readily. Uh, and in between that is, you know what I call pleasure and satisfaction. You’re, you’re in play. But they could go high or low and it’s all volatile and you need to keep track of where you’re actually at in that process. Okay. So you know, you talk about this 23, um,

Jim Rembach (17:50):

and I’m actually subconsciously, you know, looking and doing the interpretation, but I need to be able to pull those into my, my conscious or cognitive mind. And you actually talk about a progression or maturity process that we all have to go through. And it’s, first of all, it’s emotional literacy. Um, and then we have to understand how emotion shows on faces. Uh, and then also we have to be able to apply forms of expression. So I mean, realistically, I mean, what does that process look like for us to be able to gain these skills? I mean, you’ve been doing it for a couple of decades, but how can someone really go on a pathway to actually getting better at this?

Dan Hill (18:29):

Sure. Well, I wanted to write my book to make it more accessible. Dr Ekman, bless his heart. The professor who’s the expert at this is manual, was 500 pages long, 500 pages full of tedious instructions. So I boiled the whole bag down to less than half that length. And it’s full of stories and examples and visuals that you can relate to. It’s celebrities who all know. So the real key here is those expressions are not that hard to learn. It’s 23, it’s not 97, it’s 23 expressions and you’re probably gonna find as the average person that you gravitate to certain expressions that just naturally you can pick up readily that just are your, your, your wheelhouse so to speak. Uh, because anger is so common, you’re going to see it a lot and you should just start with the mouth. Is the mouth open if it’s closed, is it closed a little bit?

Dan Hill (19:25):

Is it closed really tightly? Is it closed so much that it’s like a dog who again, the bone has been taken away from it and it’s a growl. What level of hap anger? GSC, I think anybody can do that and they can do it quickly. Uh, you might think a certain expression is important to you. Uh, I would suggest you go to contempt, uh, with a quarter of the mouth poles up and wide and you have a little, I called pocket tornado, a little tension with an indentation in the corner of the mouth. That’s a sign of disrespect and distrust. It is the most reliable indicator that our marriage will fail. In fact, that the university of Washington, Seattle, they have a love lab. Couples in distress, marriages come in with 10 minutes of videotape, facially coded, a 90% accuracy rate that the couple will stay married or not 90%.

Dan Hill (20:15):

So if it’s not good to show contempt between spouses, you can imagine between a customer and a company. Also bad news. So I would say, yeah, there’s 23 expressions, whatever you do, pick up contempt because trust is the emotion of business. Contempt is, is opposite. And then go back to the heavy hitters. Smiling’s easy in a way. Is it just around the mouth? Is that the twinkle in the eye? If it’s anger, start with the mouth and how much compression there is there. I learned facial coding in simply one weekend. I took Ackman’s manual and maybe have an advantage cause I lived overseas and I’m visually oriented an art minor. But honestly I took his manual, I said what are the important parts? And I threw a bunch away. I cut out the parts that mattered to me. I looked at a place where I had a visual that can help me because we’re visual learners.

Dan Hill (21:06):

And before the weekend was over and I did put in probably 35 hours, but before the weekend is over, I felt I had a reasonable grasp of what these were. So I think with my book, which is much more accessible than Ackman’s manual, I’ve already done the cutting and pasting for you basically. And they’re just a small number of diagrams you have to go to. So go to the emotions that are most common. Go to the emotions that are most important. Go to the emotions that you simply seem to have a proclivity for in terms of picking up.

Jim Rembach (21:34):

Well, and as you’re talking, there’s a couple of things that start hitting. I mean I start seeing hitting me and my and I start thinking about even the hiring process.

Dan Hill (21:40):

Yes. And we should bring in one other element. So there are seven core emotions, but one that’s really important is another way of looking at emotional engagement and your face is are they engaged emotionally? Do they show any emotions? Because motivation and emotion have the same root word in Latin move rate to move to make something happen. I would say there’s nothing worse than two qualities and tell me you’re going to hire one is flat affect. They don’t care. This is just a job. This is what a friend of mine said. Well you have a lot of until workers and what they, what he meant by that was until five o’clock until the next job, until you fire me cause you’re wising up, et cetera, et cetera. You do not want to hire that sort of person if you can help it. So lack of engagement is really worrisome.

Dan Hill (22:28):

I had a person who I hired at you as smart as could be and he couldn’t have cared less. It didn’t work out optimally. The other thing I think you really have to worry about actually in hiring is fear and the most reliable way that fear shows is that the mouth poles wide. And why is this a problem who you hire because someone who is paralyzed by fear who freezes up because of fear will not have self initiative. They will wait for you to tell them what to do and then no way for you to tell them three more times and then they’ll take up your time by asking did I do it right? And a lot of hand holding is going to have to happen. And so lack of engagement, fear really bad news. And then I would say yes, contempt actually. Because if they don’t respect you and your higher the amend your, your staff meetings are going to be a disaster. It’s going to be like you can film mutiny on the bounty with people like this. You just don’t do the headache and the heartache.

Jim Rembach (23:26):

Well, and even as you’re talking, I’m starting to think about their feelings about themselves too. And how much of that could come out to play. I mean, sure for me, if I’m finding that I’m having to take a step down, you know, maybe I have contempt for myself that I’m actually applying for this position. I mean I see all these things started running through my head. So how do we know that we’re actually interpreting correctly? I mean is there a way that we can, you know, be conscious, read something and then maybe go into some voice dialogue, some voice Q and a something to help us really understand if we’ve interpreted correctly.

Dan Hill (23:54):

Uh, Jim, that’s an excellent point. Yes, you need to do some diagnostics and follow up to make sure that you’re read that you can really narrow down what it means. So let’s take the smirk cause I’m putting a lot of innocence on contempt here. Do I see a contempt expression along with a smile? Maybe even just a slight smile. Well that could actually be confidence. So you might have a followup question. You know, what’s your skill set here? Why do you think you’re so good for this job? You know, why do you think you can stand up, step into the role readily and make it happen? Because that’s sort of combination of a smirk and a smile. Well one guy who shows it, it’s Tom Brady.

Dan Hill (24:31):

And if you can hire someone on your staff has got the career statistics of Tom Brady who was, you know, a pretty low draft choice. That’s good news. But if you see I contempt expression with some anger, now I’m going, huh. So there’s some resistance there and there’s some superiority given off cause they got the smirk going and they find me beneath them. So now is it back to themselves? This is a low level job. You might want to ask where they’re going to be in five years. How do they see their career progressing? How does this job role fit into that? Is it, you know, they don’t like a command and control structure. So you think that you know where they are in the organization, who they have to report to. Your style’s a boss to me. You might not be able to ask those questions directly, but you might say, you know, what kind of organizational structure you think you Excel at. You know, are you a good team player? You like to take individual initiative, you like direction from a boss. I’m much coaching Jeewan you you have to do, I mean your question is so good because you’re going to have to stay in that game. You’re gonna have to replace Sherlock Holmes. You’re going to have to go to a couple other levels probably to really know you picked up the signal and made the best use of what you were seeing.

Jim Rembach (25:44):

And I would do have to bring up, cause you and I had this discussion off Mike and previously is um, there was a television show that kind of made a lot of this famous called lie to me that I just loved. And it unfortunately didn’t, didn’t go on for more than a season or two. Um, but one of the things that they brought out because it started to be coming in the limelight, is how they said that this particular science is a fuzzy science. Um, what, what would be your rebuttal to that?

Dan Hill (26:11):

Well, I think it’s, it’s fuzzy in two respects. One is a lot of people think this is just a lie detection device, and as dr Ackman would tell you, there is no lie detection, facial movement. There’s nothing that gives away the person’s being deceptive. Yeah. Because think about it from an evolutionary point of view. Do we all want to go around with an expression that tells people immediately I’m a liar? No, we’re not going to know. We’re not going to live very long. We’re not going to get hired. That one’s going to want to marry us. So on and so forth. So he wouldn’t, beings are more subtle than that. So yes, sometimes it be that you, you try to go to a flat effect of poker face. It might be that you get indignant and say, you know, I did not have sexual relations with that woman ad you’re pointing your lip, you’re acting really defy.

Dan Hill (26:53):

Like how could I possibly be like our to be nonpartisan about it. You could have Richard Nixon being interviewed about Watergate by David Frost and say, you know, I was not a crook. Presley can do whatever he wants. Nixon showed so much fear in that interview. I mean there was really no question, but you know, different people will show this in different sorts of ways. So I